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Why I don't own Jeeps

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Saw this one the way home tonight.   My entire family has a long history with these junk machines.  I've spent many many hours in and working on the junkers.  This is just par for the course...tooling along at a reasonable speed and something breaks.

 

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Sorry you've had bad experience with jeeps. 

 

The one jeep I owned, an '02 TJ, was fine - bought it used, put 90,000 miles on it, replaced fluid, filters, plugs and tires and that's all I ever had to touch on it before I sold it.

 

It was never an engine problem...it was always something weird.   Just random crap, randomly failing.   The engines, to their credit always ran.  Everything else was always in question.

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Route 23 North at the Newark Watershed Plant, know that section of road too well!  After Chrysler took over the brand tanked fast  Neighbor had one, everything from front ends to engine fires.  For that reason never got one!

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I wouldn't say it is a Jeep thing, but a crappy Chrysler QC thing. They never got their act together after Iacocca. It doesn't help that Jeeps are very popular to lift.

 

Every brand has it's issues though. Ford 6.0 head studs, Toyota frames falling in half (and/or not stopping), GM keys falling out, Subarus burning equal parts oil and gasoline, etc.

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Well this thread has given me pause...After breaking my butt snowblowing/shoveling my way out of the recent snow storm, I was toying with the idea of buying a Rubicon and hanging a small plow on it.

 

I have a light duty plow on my Ram 2500 pretty much just to push end of driveway snow plow leavings.   One or two swipes and it's gone.  It used to take me hours with a shovel.  I have a snowblower as well and you still have to take it real slow when you're dealing with a 3 foot high, 10 foot wide plow pile.  The truck saves me a ton of time.

 

There is a local guy who has an old CJ-5 that he has a plow on.  I see  him do little jobs with it and it appears to do fine.  Not sure how many times he's trashed the ball joints, tie rods,  ring gear, universal or axle(all just some of the stuff that went on my or one of my family's Jeeps). 

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That is a KNOWN issue with Jeeps from 2007 to 2010.  I have a 2008 Wrangler 4 door and experienced this "death wobble" at 65mph.  In short, Jeep decided that 14mm bolts through 15.5mm holes in the steering linkage would be acceptable if torqued down to a herculean 135 ft/lbs.  As a result, some components eventually lose their torque hold and the whole front end eventually develops a harmonic osculation if not addressed.

 

Two California Congressmen addressed this and the issue was still completely ignored (swept under the rug)..

http://www.autosafety.org/waxmaneshoo-letter-nhtsa-administrator-david-strickland-re-jeep-death-wobble

 

I wrote a letter to my US Representative Albio Sires (D-NJ) to follow up on this... never even got a response.  Happy to share more if anyone is interested!

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On the other hand, let me share anyway!  The letter was addressed to his staffer.  I am certainly not a lawyer, so read at your own risk:

*******************************

Dear Erica,

 

As per our conversation on 2/25/14, I would like to bring a matter of highway safety and consumer protection to the attention of Congressman Sires regarding the Jeep Wrangler (2 door) and Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (4 door) from model years 2007, 2009, 2009, and 2010 manufactured by Chrysler Group LLC.

 

The issue I wish to share is regarding the front suspension and steering of these vehicles.  These model year Jeeps are known to become suddenly unstable while at highway speeds due to what is commonly call a Speed Wobble (Reference #1), also known as a “Death Wobble”.  When this occurs, the front wheels and the steering wheel shake violently until the vehicle is slowed well below approximately 35 miles per hour.  Until this violent shaking is stopped, it is extremely difficult to hold the steering wheel as it shakes back and forth up to 10 times per second.         

 

I recently experienced this sudden and dangerous “death wobble” situation firsthand.  I own a 2008 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited.  It is important to state that I have owned my vehicle since it was new, and I have always taken it to a Chrysler dealer to perform recommended service and mechanical inspections.  Additionally, my Jeep has only 48,000 miles and has not been modified, involved in any accident, nor used for anything other than normal road use.  This past January, my vehicle suddenly and without any warning began to violently shake while driving at 65 mph on a highway.  I immediately reacted by reducing my vehicle’s speed but was only able to stop the shaking after I slowed my vehicle below 35 MPH.  After explaining my experience with this “death wobble” issue to the Jeep dealer service department, I was extremely surprised and concerned that the dealer was not properly informed of this problem.  Relying on my (i) personal experience spanning 13 years with vehicle suspension modifications, (ii) college education in physics, and (iii) professional experience in heavy machinery failure diagnostic processes, I took it upon myself to research what could be the root cause of such an issue.  (I share my qualifications only to highlight that the average consumer may not have knowledge of or practice with relevant resources to study and understand the mechanical issues at hand, forcing most consumers to be reliant on the dealers’ service capabilities.)  From this research, I was most disappointed to learn that a common source of this Speed Wobble can be traced to Chrysler designing the steering components using a 14mm bolt through a 15.5mm hole in a key component of steering stability.  While such a design can be perfectly acceptable if regularly inspected for appropriate torque setting, Chrysler fails to provide any recommended inspection interval or procedure to ensure that these or any steering component bolts are properly tightened.  In spite of sharing this additional knowledge with my dealer service department, they were unequipped to properly diagnose the issue.  Not realizing the depth of this whole matter at the time and relying on their assurance, I allowed the dealer to perform the service they recommended.  I was further concerned when I experience this same problem very shortly after, confirming that the Jeep dealer did not successfully correct this dangerous situation.

 

Through further research, I have come to learn that Congresswoman Ashoo and Congressman Waxman of California have jointly addressed this issue to the NHTSA (Reference #2.) and Chrysler (Reference #3.). I have discovered that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has reviewed this matter and determined that such an event does not pose a hazard because they believe that it does not result in a loss of control.  Having experienced this situation myself, I must respectfully disagree with the opinion of the NHTSA on the grounds that needing to suddenly slow a vehicle to below 35 mph while on a 65 mph roadway is a hazard in itself.  Furthermore, it stands to reason that not all drivers who experience this Speed Wobble will have the adequate presence of mind to be able to safely operate a vehicle while the steering wheel is violently shaking.

 

The only clear advantage that I was able to learn through my research for a smaller bolt being inserted into a larger hole is for expediency on a factory assembly line.  While this ease for manufacturing may not be the reason for this design, such a simple oversight which contributes to this dangerous “death wobble” condition is an unacceptable allowance.  In acknowledgement of this design weakness, many aftermarket companies offer simple kits to replace the applicable bolts for the Jeep steering system, ranging from $40 to $80.  Additionally, Chrysler has redesigned the key component mentioned above to have a matching 14mm hole with the 14mm bolt for the 2011 and newer model years.

 

In response to this Congressional inquiry, Chrysler has issued a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) (Reference #4.)  Unfortunately, this TSB is extremely vague and initially puts responsibility upon the consumer by assuming this issue is caused by modifications after the purchase of the vehicle.  Also, the TSB does not provide for inspection intervals or recommend an upgrade to enhanced bolt design. Chrysler’s response to this matter is a clear indication that Chrysler understands that this matter needs to be resolved.  It is my experience that it has failed to do so.

 

Beyond causing a sudden and immediate safety hazard, experiencing a Speed Wobble can have permanent damaging effects to the vehicle that are beyond normal wear-and-tear.  Violent shaking similar to a Speed Wobble can quickly damage the major metal steering assembly components as well as causing premature failure of common “wear items” such as bushings and joints.  By failing to include the appropriate inspection procedures as part of scheduled maintenance, Chrysler has allowed these vehicles to unnecessarily suffer significant damage costing hundreds of dollars if such a Speed Wobble event should occur.  

 

From this experience, my personal concerns are threefold:

 

(1) I have lost the confidence to allow my family members to drive this vehicle knowing such a potential hazard exists.

 

(2) By not properly informing me of appropriate maintenance for this vehicle, Chrysler has caused my vehicle to suffer substantial damage.

 

(3) There are over 500,000 of these vehicles on our roadways that could experience such a control issue without notice.

 

For all these reasons, it is clear that Chrysler must take additional action to remedy this situation through stronger communication to its dealers with the possibility of a limited recall on affected vehicles.

 

After fully reviewing this situation, I realize that my recent experiences fall exactly into the category addressed by the Congresswoman Ashoo and Congressman Waxman.  The fact that I experienced this hazard nearly two years following their inquiry confirms that additional attention must be given to this matter.  In addition to the apparent safety concern, I think the vehicle damage described above is a consumer protection matter that Congresswoman Ashoo and Congressman Waxman did not fully articulate in their formal public correspondence.  As a resident of Hoboken, I would ask Congressman Sires to examine this issue of serious public safety.  With the support of his good offices, I would hold myself ready to share additional detailed support for this matter.

 

Respectfully,

 

Xxxxxx X. Xxxxx

201.xxx.xxxx

Hoboken, NJ

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Oh that's death wobble. It's caused by the track bar. When people don't lift their jeep correctly or the bolts are not torqued right you end up with wobble wobble wobble. The bolt hole opens up and allows all that play, as your bushing wear out the wobble gets worse.

 

And ofcourse the fact I had to buy the correct size bolts to replace the undersized ones.

 

I would do it all over again. I got nothing special and I drive high speeds to boston once a month on 35's. No wobble for me and its been 2 years.

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DW can be caused by allot of things such as too much angle in the drive shaft to the transfer case. A SYE takes care of that. People who go more than 2 inches of suspension lift run into that quite often. Or as jack said the trac bar either wearing out or not being relocated after lifting a wrangler. It also could be caused by a bad steering damper, or a broken sway bar link. DW also is not JK specific TJ's get it too. I had it because my front trac bar ball joint end went bad. I'm just about to lift my TJ 3" but I spent the $ and got adjustable trac bars along with a MML so the OME 2" springs and 1"BL won't cause DW. Also I don't think that's DW in the video it's either a broken tie rod or a broken ball joint. The amount that tire was moving is way to extream to be DW.

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it's def. DW.

 

Its really not as bad(mechanically) a problem as the dangerous effect it has. Imagine turning your wheel back and forth really really fast. lol

ALL Jeeps or wranglers rather are very sensitive to suspension geometry. Its a solid axle problem kinda thing. The old jeeps had terrible  bump steer, they were never safe vehicles. I wonder why so many people get them for just "road" cars, otherwise the rest of us know they have road problems.

 

 

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Regardless wranglers are cool as hell and if you can turn a wrench yourself they are a fun and very capable vehicle. Yes even JKs. I will have my TJ forever, well unless I find a decent deal on a LJ Rubicon. Then I will have that forever. Just remember JEEP stands for just empty every pocket!

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Problems happen with every car, this really doesn't give me pause. I am actively looking for a nice used Jeep right now. Trying to target model years 1992-1999. The hard part has been trying to find one that isn't rusted out and that isn't going to break the bank.

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I've had nothing but Jeeps for last 20 years or so. They were all modified and I never had any unusual issues with any of them. My current ride is a family cruiser: 2005 Grand Cherokee with 150,000 miles on it. I did just replace the steering rack last weekend but since I've been running a lift for 80,000 miles I'd say it was about due. All of mine have been beasts that can take a beating.

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I've had nothing but Jeeps for last 20 years or so. They were all modified and I never had any unusual issues with any of them. My current ride is a family cruiser: 2005 Grand Cherokee with 150,000 miles on it. I did just replace the steering rack last weekend but since I've been running a lift for 80,000 miles I'd say it was about due. All of mine have been beasts that can take a beating.

 

I know some people have decent luck with them and my cousin still runs one. He's always posting the latest part that broke.   A starter and a universal yoke on the rear drive shaft were the latest bits.    I've never replaced a steering rack in any vehicle.  Oh, well ok, that's not entirely true.  I had to replace a steering box in my 1968 Mustang after 280,000 miles.   The only vehicle I've owned that needed the rear diff rebuilt(tooth missing on ring gear)?  Jeep.   The only vehicle that seemed to eat ball joints?  Jeep.   Starters, alternators, bushings, fuel pump, on and on.   I also carried a spare distributor cap cuz mine ate them every 10-15k miles.  Driving along and deader than a doornail, just like that.   My step dad had similar issues...Shrug.  As an off road vehicle it was great.   It's reliability was horrible.

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I know some people have decent luck with them and my cousin still runs one. He's always posting the latest part that broke. A starter and a universal yoke on the rear drive shaft were the latest bits. I've never replaced a steering rack in any vehicle. Oh, well ok, that's not entirely true. I had to replace a steering box in my 1968 Mustang after 280,000 miles. The only vehicle I've owned that needed the rear diff rebuilt(tooth missing on ring gear)? Jeep. The only vehicle that seemed to eat ball joints? Jeep. Starters, alternators, bushings, fuel pump, on and on. I also carried a spare distributor cap cuz mine ate them every 10-15k miles. Driving along and deader than a doornail, just like that. My step dad had similar issues...Shrug. As an off road vehicle it was great. It's reliability was horrible.

Maybe it is luck. Funny thing is, I have a '68 Mustang too. 87,000 miles. I recently replaced the fuel pump and its currently sitting in the garage with a blown rear.

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I own a wrangler I've had for over 20 years. It has 7" of lift, spring under, 36" swamper Irok radials (balanced with beads), and custom steering I built myself with heim joints. It also has 3 steering stabilizers on it, and a steering box brace. Heavy duty adjustable ball joints in the G2 front locked Dana 44 axle. And I kept the front track bar, but I built my own custom adjustable version. And I still have my sway bar with disconnects. No death wobble, it only does about 62mph top speed with the 4:88's and 4.3:1 Atlas II transfer case. But I will get in it, and drive it anywhere anytime. The stock 4.0L has close to 300K on it, and it doesn't have a speck of rust anywhere. It's been wheeled hard since I've owned it. Who is still driving a 92 Gm product that can say the same thing? Build a wrangler right and it works. Take shortcuts because you can only afford to modify it half assed, and you get death wobble. Has nothing to do with the jeep, and everything to do with the moron that has no idea how to build one properly.

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