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Ridiculous NJ Assault Weapons Ban Expires in 2012 ?????


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#1 1911Fan

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Posted 07 October 2009 - 11:44 PM

As many of my friends on this forum know already, I have spoken with some attorneys and quite a few FFL's with regard to the legality of AK variants and AR's recently as I have been deciding between an post ban configuration AK type and an AR.
It seems, AR's are the only CLEARLY NJ legal option at this current time.

By CLEARLY legal - It is meant that should you be in possession of the firearm, you will not be arrested by a LEO who is not willing to overlook the Grey Area which covers AK type rifles with post ban configurations as they are all, legally speaking of course, AK type semi-automatic weapons and named (all be it, by a clarifying paragraph) similar to the original design in function and essential nature. Read the statute again and contact an attorney if not 100% positive that you will have to fight it out in the NJ court system should you be arrested for being in possession of a non CLEARLY defined as legal semi automatic rifle.

Any firearm manufactured under any designation, which is substantially identical to any of the
firearms listed in paragraph 1 above. As used in this definition, the term "substantial" means
pertaining to the substance, matter, material or essence of a thing and the term "identical" means
exactly the same. Hence, a firearm is substantially identical to another only if it is identical in all
material, essential respects. A firearm is not substantially identical to a listed assault firearm unless
it is identical except for differences that do not alter the essential nature of the firearm.

The following are examples of manufacturer changes that do not alter the essential nature of the
firearm: the name or designation of the firearm; the color of the firearm; the material used to make
the barrel or stock of the firearm; the material used to make a pistol grip; and a modification of a
pistol grip.


According to NJ legal minds other than Nappen(he was the only successful attorney with such a case here in NJ BTW),
changing the name from AK to Saiga does not change the essential nature of the firearm in question as the action is similar and the stock change to a sporter stock vs. a pistol grip is also covered as a manufacturer change which does not alter the essential nature of the firearm......
I am also now well aware and familiar with ALL the court cases that have ever been in the NJ courts with regard to posession of an improperly named "Assault Weapon" by otherwise law abiding gun owners(I prefer modular repeating rifles myself :D) and it seems depending on the particular county/court/judge, it could go well or VERY badly for the person found to be in possession of said designated semi-automatic firearm.

After all this, I have decided an AK is not in my near future as I am in NO WAY willing to risk my freedom and the quality of life of my family in order to own a "quasi-legal" AK in "so-called" post ban configuration (not to mention the 401K to pay the legal fees associated with such an expensive legal defense).

As unfair as I feel this is to the law abiding gun owner in this state, these lengthy discussions have just made me abandon the idea of purchasing an AK type weapon.

Now with all that said, I now understand that there is a possibility of a light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak.


As written....
Title 13, Chapter 54 -- Chapter Notes
CHAPTER AUTHORITY: N.J.S.A. 2C:39-1 et seq. and 2C:58-1 et seq.; as to N.J.A.C.
13:54-1.15, N.J.S.A. 47:1A-2 and Executive Order No. 9 (Gov. Richard J. Hughes, September
30, 1963).
CHAPTER SOURCE AND EFFECTIVE DATE:
R.2007 d.378, effective November 13, 2007.
See: 39 N.J.R. 2324(a), 39 N.J.R. 5349(a).
CHAPTER EXPIRATION DATE:
Chapter 54, Firearms and Weapons, expires on November 13, 2012.


Now for the point of the thread (please allow me to apologize for the length of the posted background information/train of thought-I just wanted to share the knowledge I have solicited recently with regard to this topic and we are all on the same page).....

Do you think it is possible that this statute will not be renewed in 2012 thus allowing law abiding gun owners in the nanny state to purchase the same rifles that are legal for sale in the free states of our country?
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#2 PK90

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 05:58 AM

Here it is, short and sweet:

All clones of the firearms on "the list" are legal if they are configured with one or none of the features thanks to the law suit by Colt and Springfield Armory.

You can be arrested for having any EVIL looking firearm.

The expiration will just be moved to a later date in the future without input from anyone.

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#3 DevsAdvocate

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 08:24 AM

Banning "evil features" is lame.

#4 djg0770

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:13 AM

Banning anything is lame.


There - fixed it for you!

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#5 1911Fan

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 04:59 PM

Here it is, short and sweet:

All clones of the firearms on "the list" are legal if they are configured with one or none of the features thanks to the law suit by Colt and Springfield Armory.

You can be arrested for having any EVIL looking firearm.


Once again everyone, I apologize for the LONG post but I feel the need to share what I have discovered with other law abiding gun owners as we must stick together to get anything in NJ changed for the better, and I would never want to give the anti-gunners any ammunition to use against us.
Please do not think I am some armchair commando "Tacti-COOL" poser. I am a born researcher who analyzes things in more extreme detail than most. As a Physical Chemist with one of many specialties in quantum mechanics, I tend to be extremely thorough in my investigations/analysis of everything in life I consider or have examined in the lab. I have also been blessed to have worked with some of the most respected corporate lawyers that ever defended scientific prescription drug and OTC drug analysis research - and with the money involved in that, I assure you these boys are no slouches - SHARKS by every definition of the word with jaw dropping trial resumes longer than Glenn Beck's list of gripes with the current administration - I would never want one of them to show up on the other side of the court from any of us!
Luckily, many are law abiding gun owners / firearms enthusiasts so we are lucky if you ask my opinion.

That sure sounds nice, short, and sweet Paul. I am not trying to be disrespectful in any way, but I must respectfully disagree. I was discussing the colt/springfield lawsuit in detail with some trial lawyer friends and they made it clear that there is not any remark of AR-type weapons in the statute, only specific models of the AR platform (like Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series rather than Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 type semi-automatic firearms and the same with Bushmaster Assault Rifle rather than Bushmaster Assault Rifle type semi-automatic rifles) and that is how they squeaked through the name changes like Colt Match Target being a legal rifle in NJ as it was not specifically mentioned in the statute and fulfilled the requirements of not too many Evil Features defined in the clarifying paragraph following the banned list of firearms. With AK's, the legislators covered "all bases so to speak" by not naming Avtomat Kalishnikov specifically but rather vaguely defining any Avtomat Kalishnikov type semi-automatic rifle as an illegal Assault Rifle. This is a gray area I am not willing to step into as some attorneys said they would not even take a case involving an AK variant but would snatch up a case with regard to a post ban AR-15 in NJ without question and some even referred to it as a "quick money slam dunk case". Without 2A rights for us here in NJ - I am definitely not willing to risk my freedom with an AK variant.

That said, I absolutely agree, as do most of the attorneys I spoke with, that one can be arrested for ANY EVIL looking firearm however with the AK variants, you will for sure be in for a long and arduous court battle.

I was also further assured that as long as the rifle in question is not a specifically mentioned AR-15, the case will never make it to trial court.

With regard to the extension of the ban without anyone knowing about it - I bet you hit the nail on the head unfortunately - I hope to be out of this state sooner than later - I MISS AMERICA!

As written in the statute.....
"Assault firearms" means:
1. Any of the following firearms:
Algimec AGM1 type
Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"
Armalite AR-180 type
Australian Automatic Arms SAR
Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms
Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms
Bushmaster Assault Rifle
Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900
CETME G3
Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type
Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 series
Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types
Demro TAC-1 carbine type
Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types
FAMAS MAS223 types
FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms
Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 shotguns
G3SA type
Galil type
Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1
Intratec TEC 9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms
M1 carbine type
M14S type
MAC 10, MAC 11, MAC 11-9 mm carbine type firearms
PJK M-68 carbine type
Plainfield Machine Company Carbine
Ruger K-Mini-14/5 F and Mini-14/5 RF
SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types
SKS with detachable magazine type
Spectre Auto carbine type
Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type
Sterling MK-6, MK-7 and SAR types
Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms
USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun
Uzi type semi-automatic firearms
Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms
Weaver Arm Nighthawk;
Need......
more......
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#6 PK90

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 07:55 PM

I know where your coming from. If your not comfortable with purchasing an AK clone, and by the research you've done clearly shows that you are not, don't put yourself in that position. Ponder this; The NJSP do inspections at dealers who possess AK clone firearms for sale and the A&D books indicate prior sales. There is no law broken and sales continue. "The Man" doesn't care what you have if you don't draw attention to yourself, i.e. break laws, have domestics, etc. The choice is yours.

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#7 matty

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 08:10 PM

My genie/mermaid/fairy wish is to get the M1 carbine off the NJ Named Evil List. I mean, I can see the select fire one (M2) but a genuine or repro semi? Kind of like the M14/M1A, at least the AG clarified that awhile back, although the letter on the website does not detail what the differences were for those two that make the M1A un-evil.

Ah well, I can dream--and rent them at ranges in other states when travelling---

#8 DevsAdvocate

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 09:08 PM

I just want the bayonet lug, flash hider, and collapsible stock. Oh, and to carry a legit 30 round magazine. None of the 'pinned' bullhockey.

#9 coldsolderjoint

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Posted 08 October 2009 - 10:20 PM

I just want the bayonet lug, flash hider, and collapsible stock. Oh, and to carry a legit 30 round magazine. None of the 'pinned' bullhockey.


I think you can have that stuff if the lower is fake ?
Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyways.

#10 DevsAdvocate

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 08:15 AM

I just want the bayonet lug, flash hider, and collapsible stock. Oh, and to carry a legit 30 round magazine. None of the 'pinned' bullhockey.


I think you can have that stuff if the lower is fake ?


What's the point then?

#11 quikz

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 09:31 AM

Ooookay.....


I have two Saiga rifles bought in & from Southern NJ. These are/use AK100 Series actions/internals, but are altered in a way so as not capable of accepting "AK" mags, etc. These are imported as hunting rifles and NO doubt they do well in that respect. They do not have flash suppressors, lugs or all the other 'scary' features that NJ is paranoid about. Comes with box detach mag with 10-rds or less. Soooooo.....what's the prob???


Also, nothing gets 'expired' in NJ.

NJ practices letting 'Genie out of bottle' legislative policies regarding that pesky 2nd Amend thing... Run Genie RUN!!! You're FREE!!! :roll:

(Note: Could also be applied to state's draconian regulatory policies, property tax policies, soon to be-high gas taxation policy, fee's/fines/tolls, upcoming 'national sales tax' piggybacked onto state sales tax.) Depressing.... :(

#12 BCeagle

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 09:47 AM

I want a collapsible stock and 30 rd mag. That is all.

#13 1911Fan

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 12:35 PM

Ooookay.....

I have two Saiga rifles bought in & from Southern NJ. These are/use AK100 Series actions/internals, but are altered in a way so as not capable of accepting "AK" mags, etc. These are imported as hunting rifles and NO doubt they do well in that respect. They do not have flash suppressors, lugs or all the other 'scary' features that NJ is paranoid about. Comes with box detach mag with 10-rds or less. Soooooo.....what's the prob???


PLEASE READ CAREFULLY AND SLOWLY AS TO AVOID CONFUSION!!!!

The problem, perhaps not for you, but definitely for me and the FFL's and lawyers I have spoken with is in the details of the legislation itself and how it lends itself to be interpreted with regard to the legality of AK TYPE Semi-automatic firearms as the prosecutor/local judge/local court system chooses to be in their best interest. (Keep in mind, these folks know nothing of you internals/AK100 action like I do - in fact, I almost bought a Saiga last week believing the same thing - go ahead and ask people right here on this forum-that's what made me start calling every FFL I could looking for one in stock). Meaning.......A "brake light out" routine stop gone wrong (perhaps on your way home from your rifle club) WILL get you arrested, and guarantee you a court fight to clear your name and defend the unclear and vaguely defined lawful possession of your AK type semi automatic firearm as a post ban configuration rifle in compliance with the clarifying/qualifying paragraph in the NJ statute mentioned above.

I now know of someone who lived through this exact situation. It cost him $30,000 in legal defense for his choice to possess an AK type semi-automatic firearm. Although, he was not sent to prison, it cost him $30K to end up taking a lesser charge which carried zero jail time. To me, that is not worth it just to own this wonderful type of rifle.
Believe you me, I wish every law abiding gun owner had an AK in their posession - the country as a whole would be a much safer place!
The only AR-15's that are banned are listed by specific model name, not by similarity as in the language "AK type semiautomatic firearm" and that was an exploited loophole (thank goodness) in the colt/springfield lawsuit also mentioned above which allowed the sale of AR-15 type weapons that fulfilled the post ban requirements which are clearly defined in the paragraphs immediately following the banned rifle list in the sate firearms statute. You will never see a Colt AR-15 or CAR-15 or Bushmaster Assault Rifle (specific model names here) for sale as they are clearly defined as banned in the ridiculous NJ statute. You will find Bushmaster model number (fill in the blank) and any other non specifically named AR-15 style firearms for sale in just about every gunshop in NJ.
This exact issue is what led to DPMS, Stag, CMMG, S&W, etc.... flooding the market with AR-15 style/type weapons that #1) Were not specifically named on the banned rifle list and #2) were not generally categorized as would have been the case if the legislation would have read "AR-15 type semi-automatic firearms" .

I will not defend my research/thoughts/ideas on this matter any further here in this thread. My mind is made up, thanks to the experts I consulted, and if one chooses to own an AK variant in NJ - good for that person!

To everyone reading - I do not control your minds - If you are unsure of anything, I would recommend you consult your own lawyer of choice and ensure that he/she is willing to defend you in court based on the information with which they provide you, and please make an informed decision based on what you believe to be true as I would never speak or decide anything for you - It's that little known concept of free will. I am just sharing my researched conclusion with you all.

Trust me, I don't believe anything anyone says without researching it for myself with regard to everything in life from whether D&D is better than Starbuck's to which car wax provides the best shine, and I hope you don't either!
I WILL NOT RISK MY FREEDOM FOR THIS STUPIDITY nor will I discuss it anymore in this thread.

Please do as you wish, and God Bless.
Also, please feel free to think I am an uninformed idiot with not one concrete point - I honestly couldn't care less! :p

Now back to the thread......
Sugar, Honey, Iced Tea(my son is now starting to repeat words so no more good ones)......I was hoping if we were lucky enough to have this expire in 2012, I could then feel comfortable possessing an AK type semi-automatic firearm and perhaps even get an AR-15 with an adjustable length of pull and the much meaner in a good way looking (in my opinion at least) flash hider.
Let us not forget......mini mags (less that the standard 30 round capacity).
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#14 Guest__*

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:27 PM

"any ak type" MEANS exactly what is written.. remember the ban list is a NAMING ban.. NOT a ban describing the action of the weapon.. "ak47" "ak74" it is written to include ALL "ak" weapons.. a saiga is NOT an AK.. it is a SAIGA.. and you are to consider it substantially identical to an "AK" if it meets the state specified criteria..

A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be "substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:

A. semi-automatic rifle that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of the following:

1. a folding or telescoping stock;
2. a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
3. a bayonet mount;
4. a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
5. a grenade launcher;

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/agguide/assltf.htm

the situation is PAINFULLY simple..

1) is a Saiga a listed gun on the ban list? NO
2) is it substantially identical based on the GOVERNMENT PROVIDED definition of substantially identical? NO

#15 coldsolderjoint

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:38 PM

He said he wants to be extra careful, so let him. The rest of us do what is the norm. (play the evil features game).
Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyways.

#16 Guest__*

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 02:45 PM

He said he wants to be extra careful, so let him. The rest of us do what is the norm. (play the evil features game).


there is a difference between ignoring someones choices.. that i can live with.. the problem is the seed that is planted.. he is instilling unjust fear and further indirectly hurting the cause.. if HE wants to not get something that looks like an AK.. by all means.. we live in a free society.. go for it.. no problems here.. my problem starts when he implies that I along with countless other law abiding citizens are breaking the law... i have gone through great lengths to be SURE i am not violating the law.. i have spent HOURS researching.. ive even contacted the state police on more than one occasion just to be SUPER CLEAR... not only did they know what a Saiga was.. they understood %100 that the "action" was modeled after an AK.. but it is NOT an ak47.. it is NOT an AK 74.. or an ak100000 its a SAIGA.. its just frustrating....

i mean if you REALLY want to be ridiculous about it.. look at how many other TYPES of firearms you cant have due to being named.... if the intention was naming the "action type" then we would be pretty limited to about 10 powder guns.. and that would be about it..

"m-1 carbine TYPE" wtf does that even mean... look at the action of that gun.. and now see how many guns you just banned if you use that process...

#17 coldsolderjoint

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 06:11 PM

He said he wants to be extra careful, so let him. The rest of us do what is the norm. (play the evil features game).


there is a difference between ignoring someones choices.. that i can live with.. the problem is the seed that is planted.. he is instilling unjust fear and further indirectly hurting the cause.. if HE wants to not get something that looks like an AK.. by all means.. we live in a free society.. go for it.. no problems here.. my problem starts when he implies that I along with countless other law abiding citizens are breaking the law... i have gone through great lengths to be SURE i am not violating the law.. i have spent HOURS researching.. ive even contacted the state police on more than one occasion just to be SUPER CLEAR... not only did they know what a Saiga was.. they understood %100 that the "action" was modeled after an AK.. but it is NOT an ak47.. it is NOT an AK 74.. or an ak100000 its a SAIGA.. its just frustrating....

i mean if you REALLY want to be ridiculous about it.. look at how many other TYPES of firearms you cant have due to being named.... if the intention was naming the "action type" then we would be pretty limited to about 10 powder guns.. and that would be about it..

"m-1 carbine TYPE" wtf does that even mean... look at the action of that gun.. and now see how many guns you just banned if you use that process...



Oh, I get it, well.. 1911Fan said he was done talking on the subject.. so we just have to remember we are all on the same team here. :D Free hugs and bullets.
Don't take life too seriously, nobody gets out alive anyways.

#18 Guest__*

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 06:47 PM

He said he wants to be extra careful, so let him. The rest of us do what is the norm. (play the evil features game).


there is a difference between ignoring someones choices.. that i can live with.. the problem is the seed that is planted.. he is instilling unjust fear and further indirectly hurting the cause.. if HE wants to not get something that looks like an AK.. by all means.. we live in a free society.. go for it.. no problems here.. my problem starts when he implies that I along with countless other law abiding citizens are breaking the law... i have gone through great lengths to be SURE i am not violating the law.. i have spent HOURS researching.. ive even contacted the state police on more than one occasion just to be SUPER CLEAR... not only did they know what a Saiga was.. they understood %100 that the "action" was modeled after an AK.. but it is NOT an ak47.. it is NOT an AK 74.. or an ak100000 its a SAIGA.. its just frustrating....

i mean if you REALLY want to be ridiculous about it.. look at how many other TYPES of firearms you cant have due to being named.... if the intention was naming the "action type" then we would be pretty limited to about 10 powder guns.. and that would be about it..

"m-1 carbine TYPE" wtf does that even mean... look at the action of that gun.. and now see how many guns you just banned if you use that process...



Oh, I get it, well.. 1911Fan said he was done talking on the subject.. so we just have to remember we are all on the same team here. :D Free hugs and bullets.



just to be clear its NOTHING personal against him... just dont like the message.. 8-)

#19 1911Fan

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 10:15 PM

OK - I will say more.....all be it cautiously as my flame suit is almost burnt to a crisp..... :oops:

First off - Allow me to retract my statement from my earlier post that I couldn't care less. That was childish and immature of me.

Secondly - Thank you everyone for not being mad at me. I do not mean to plant negative seeds in any way and I am in no way trying to imply that anyone is breaking the law - just that depending on their mood, if something simple like a traffic violation stop was to occur that drew attention to yourself (to use PK90's words) possessing an AK variant, the anti-gun prosecutors and judges in NJ (Somerset County in particular) could use this argument to put you on trial even if just to try and make an example out of you or selfishly advance their own careers. You will probably get off without jail time as did the man I mentioned in a previous post, but Lawyers aren't free, and all of this was enough for me to decide I will continue to wait before taking possession of an AK variant. I feel the gun laws in this state need to be overturned ASAP so that this would not even be a concern for us all!

With that said, I assure you that I am an active NRA member. I call and write every representative in office here in NJ (none of which I voted for) letting the know my opinion of the current unfair laws in addition to politely and respectfully suggesting improvements to the current system.
If all of us ban together, we can change the laws - we just need to be dedicated and sacrifice some of our free time and printer ink cartridges for the greater good of establishing 2A rights in this "communist republic of NJ". We also can not vote for Fagggett or Corslime PERIOD. Not to mention they admitted their plans raise our property and income taxes. At least Christie (who is not exactly a friend of firearms enthusiasts) knows the laws are unfair and has said while campaigning that he will not sign any additional gun restrictions. He even used the infamous line - "We need to enforce the current laws, not make more".....And yes, the lesser of two evils crap is REALLY getting to me too! That's for another thread though!

I HONESTLY was just posting the information I gathered from FFL's and excellent trial lawyers (many of whom own multiple firearms), who just so happen to be friends of mine, who thought they were helping me stay out of trouble in this Anti-Gun state, in order to explain the background info which led me to discover the expiration date on the legislation in the first place (as they insisted on going through the statute with me line by line). I was hoping this would be a date to look forward to like back in 2004.

This all started when another very good friend of mine who is an FFL blew my mind when he informed me that he refuses to transfer a Saiga for me and planted this seed in me. :o
I didn't want to listen, I swear! I even called 2 more FFL's that day, one of whom reacted rather explosively when I called them for directions as I discovered they had Saiga rifles in stock. One FFL in particular, whose store name (against the advice of many of my friends here on this forum and at my rifle club) I do not wish to mention as I would feel as if I was being vindictive and although he won't transfer AK variants to NJ residents (he will if transfer to you if you live in a free state), I would never want him to stop selling firearms he feels comfortable transferring to NJ residents or lose any business due to my frustrations with his over-reaction. One particular FFL really scared me when he told me that if I had come into his retail establishment with my query, he would have placated me for a short time while he had someone else in the store call/notify the police and report that I was asking him to transfer an illegal firearm and have the police question me / escort me out of his store just to cover his hide.
I hope it tells you something about me that I am not bashing him by name or by mentioning his retail establishment, as that is how dedicated I am to the cause of establishing 2A rights for law abiding citizens in NJ.

LET IT BE CLEAR - I HAVE WANTED AN AK VARIANT VERY BADLY FOR OVER 15 YEARS. If the laws change, I bet you can guess what I will be buying first! Second will be an AR with a mean looking, and let us not forget, evil flash hider.

I am sorry if I offended anyone and I will do everyone a favor and stop posting anything with regard to this topic.
Once again, please forgive me if I offended any of you in any way. That was not my intention at all.


Allow me to add:

Damagedworld is an unbelievably generous and knowledgeable person who was too kind to me and offered me amazing information as well as assistance with many of my annoying firearms questions in the past. He was even willing to give up some of his free time to help me with some parts replacements on my firearms. I hope one day, I can help him half as much as he helped me since we first were in contact with each other.

I feel PK90 is also a stand-up guy, from my limited experiences with him and also from what many people I know have said during our discussions with regard to Paul.

For the record, I wish we never had to have this discussion and I now regret posting / sharing any information that I have received in the past week or so.
Once again, I hope all of you out there will forgive me for this and I will never do anything like this again (even if my intentions are 100% benevolent).

Just to end on a lighter note - Feel free to LOL - Maybe I am just fear mongering so all of you will sell your AK type semi automatic rifles sooner than later and I will get pick of the litter!
I recently learned the tactic from watching the main-stream / drive-by media as well as Congress. :D :D :D
Need......
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#20 coldsolderjoint

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Posted 09 October 2009 - 10:32 PM

...
This all started when another very good friend of mine who is an FFL blew my mind when he informed me that he refuses to transfer a Saiga for me and planted this seed in me. :o
I didn't want to listen, I swear! I even called 2 more FFL's that day, one of whom reacted rather explosively when I called them for directions as I discovered they had Saiga rifles in stock. One FFL in particular, whose store name (against the advice of many of my friends here on this forum and at my rifle club) I do not wish to mention as I would feel as if I was being vindictive and although he won't transfer AK variants to NJ residents (he will if transfer to you if you live in a free state), I would never want him to stop selling firearms he feels comfortable transferring to NJ residents or lose any business due to my frustrations with his over-reaction. One particular FFL really scared me when he told me that if I had come into his retail establishment with my query, he would have placated me for a short time while he had someone else in the store call/notify the police and report that I was asking him to transfer an illegal firearm and have the police question me / escort me out of his store just to cover his hide. ...


Damn.. Time to find a new FFL. After that, I wouldn't have even used him for something like a hunting rifle. I know one FFL who won't transfer a pistol gripped pump shotgun. And those aren't even on the list at all. They aren't even semi.
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#21 1911Fan

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  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 09 October 2009 - 10:53 PM

Damn.. Time to find a new FFL. After that, I wouldn't have even used him for something like a hunting rifle. I know one FFL who won't transfer a pistol gripped pump shotgun. And those aren't even on the list at all. They aren't even semi.


I never used this FFL for anything nor will I ever in the future - Nor will my wife, close friends, mom, dad, or sister and new soon to be bro in law - You can take that to the bank! - I didn't even know he existed up until last week - I just came into some information through my channels (It sure is a small world) and called him to get directions and ask him if it was true that he did have 4 or 5 Saigas in stock.

I want to be my own FFL, but my good friend is one and with the exception of not transferring an AK style semiautomatic firearm for anyone at all (just for clarity's sake, he is not the explosive FFL who I speak of above - 5 other FFL's I contacted have the same policy as my friend - and not one of them tried to threaten/intimidate me - most offered me an AR instead), he orders me anything I want!
And I get an awesome layaway plan I would have to give up if I became an FFL myself.

How much does it cost a year to maintain an FFL license in NJ? Just the license cost, not the store front if any of you with an FFL care to PM me and let me know :) !?!

I would text my friend but he is on a date and I don't want to Clock Block him for this.
Sorry, I'm such a bad speller! :oops: ;)
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#22 GoNRA

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 03:26 AM

A firearm is only evil if it is in an evil mans hands.
Chris
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"Politics is like that itch you can't scratch"

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#23 Guest__*

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 07:52 AM

i am posting this NOT to try to change your mind or anything.. but you are letting your negative experience with a handful of people who are overly paranoid keep you from owning something that you want.. this is obviously your choice.... but the first time i ever held a Saiga? it was in Zeus sporting goods in egg harbor township... you might say great whats your point... my point is they are one of the most "hunter only" type firearms stores i have EVER been to.. they will typically carry ONE "ar" and ONE saiga... and thats it.. the rest is ultra conservative 22s, shotguns, hunting rifles, etc... as pointed out.. these people legally selling Saigas (Zeus, butch's, Paul, etc..) these are not shady back door fringe operations.. these are legitimate businesses (in two cases actual store fronts)... im sure these places are inspected from time to time... if there were problems with selling the saiga, they would be in trouble by now..

i will say this.. when i wanted to buy a saiga from another state (like 2 years back) all the FFL guys i contacted through the phone book wouldnt touch it...i think that independently operating FFL dealers will be MORE hesitant when it comes to ordering cool shit... i think that in a lot of cases they are somewhat paranoid about being "set up"... so i wouldn't let that get to you..

want to be %100 sure? call the state police firearms division.. tell them you were in a store and you saw a Saiga for sale and want to buy it.. ask them if it is currently a banned firearm.... dont question them when they tell you it isnt... dont say "but its an ak variant???" just simply say.. i want to buy a saiga from a gun shop that has one for sale.. are they legal in NJ...the answer WILL be yes...

again you are free to do what you want.. but i just think that its lame that you are not getting something you want due to a couple unreliable people who talked a lot of nonsense..

like i said before it is amazingly simple..

is the saiga banned by name?
NO
is it substantially identical to an AK?
NO

in fact the whole reason they lack things like flash hiders.. and bayonet lugs is so they can be sold in states like NJ...


take another look at that list.. and read these other vague references..

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms
Bushmaster Assault Rifle
FAMAS MAS223 types
m1 carbine type
M14S type
Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type
Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms

to make a point i will draw your attention to this.. YES they name "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms " but then further down the list they name the Valmet... take a second and check out the action on a valmet.. then on an AK... its the same action.. same gun.. just slightly different on looks.. if what you were saying IS true.. then they would NOT name the Valmet as it would be covered by "ak type" the fact that they ALSO name the Valmet just further reinforces the fact that these are NAME bans and even though the word "type" is included it is included to denote series.. so they do NOT have to write.. ak47, ak74, ak101, ak103, ak104, ak108 and so on.. there are MANY actual "AK" rifles.. to say "ak type" is noting that ANY of the actual AK series is banned.. if the intention was to ban any firearm with an ak action.. they would not need to address the Valmet as the action is the same and would already be banned without being named..

and im glad you did NOT take my post the wrong way.. as it WAS intended to help not hurt... the Saiga and several other AK variants are legal in NJ, as stated if you are not comfortable owning one, i TOTALLY understand... but you are missing out on the absolute best military style weapon you can own.. and lets face it.. with the current president in office the likely hood of laws becoming LESS restrictive is pretty low.. i actually see the saiga and other variants becoming banned at some point, at which point owning it prior to that ban will be critical.. even if you dont want to modify it because you feel it will be too borderline.. why not at least pick up the rifle itself.. they are not super expensive.. and it least that way you HAVE it.. and lets face it.. if you walk into a sporting goods store.. legally buy a rifle.. and leave it stock.. how much trouble can YOU get in.. my guess would be zero.. id just hate to see you wait for something you really want only to come to a point where you will NEVER get it..

#24 djg0770

djg0770
  • LocationPassaic County
  • Home Range:GFH Woodland Park

Posted 10 October 2009 - 10:46 AM

want to be %100 sure? call the state police firearms division.. tell them you were in a store and you saw a Saiga for sale and want to buy it.. ask them if it is currently a banned firearm.... dont question them when they tell you it isnt... dont say "but its an ak variant???" just simply say.. i want to buy a saiga from a gun shop that has one for sale.. are they legal in NJ...the answer WILL be yes...


Calling does you no good if you get arrested. Write a letter and request a response in writing. CYA is the name of the game.

-Dan

The Constitution does NOT give any rights.  It merely lists SOME of those rights.
NRA Life Member
 

From a local FFL "WE ARE OPPRESSED STATES FRIENDLY"


#25 Guest__*

Guest__*

Posted 10 October 2009 - 11:49 AM

want to be %100 sure? call the state police firearms division.. tell them you were in a store and you saw a Saiga for sale and want to buy it.. ask them if it is currently a banned firearm.... dont question them when they tell you it isnt... dont say "but its an ak variant???" just simply say.. i want to buy a saiga from a gun shop that has one for sale.. are they legal in NJ...the answer WILL be yes...


Calling does you no good if you get arrested. Write a letter and request a response in writing. CYA is the name of the game.


sure if you want to go through all that trouble you could.. but in THIS situation thats hardly necessary since we are talking about a readily available rifle that is sold retail in many store locations.. but sure you COULD do that.. the problem with writing a letter is you are opening a can of worms.. and drawing attention to a situation that really should not have attention drawn to it.. in what instance would you get arrested for buying a gun at a gun shop.. i mean just think about it logically.. would you write a letter asking if a glock is legal? or a mossberg pump?

#26 djg0770

djg0770
  • LocationPassaic County
  • Home Range:GFH Woodland Park

Posted 10 October 2009 - 12:04 PM

If you're arrested - telling the cop and prosecutor "bu bu but I called the state police" will get you a few laughs along with a few days in jail.

Having the SP's ruling in black and white on a piece of paper, addressed to you is a whole other argument, one which will cost you MUCH less money to defend in the event you get bent over.

-Dan

The Constitution does NOT give any rights.  It merely lists SOME of those rights.
NRA Life Member
 

From a local FFL "WE ARE OPPRESSED STATES FRIENDLY"


#27 1911Fan

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 12:41 PM

Having the SP's ruling in black and white on a piece of paper, addressed to you is a whole other argument, one which will cost you MUCH less money to defend in the event you get bent over.


What an amazing idea!!!!!
Maybe this thread could turn into something VERY positive for us all rather than the annoyance it currently is!
I wouldn't annoy the NJSP as a civilian but if I was an officer of the law, I would feel obligated to do so in order to clarify this so I wouldn't ruin someone's life by arresting them for not breaking the law!
Perhaps we can get this in writing (clearly naming the specific model Saiga and any others we wish to be sure about as legal) directly from the Head Badge (no offense intended) and share it with each other?
Perhaps he could address it To Whom It May Concern or To Arresting Officer (even better).
I would carry a laminated version in the same case with my rifle just to CMA.
I would buy a post ban configuration AK in a second if we can get this in writing! My wife will get a matching one she just said.

I believe Totalabuse once said on another thread that he has an in with the NJSP......If he can't help us out with this one, maybe one of our LEO members would be willing to make contact in order to help clarify this for every person in the state of NJ. Even our anti-gun neighbors! :lol:

This is what I am talking about :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Law abiding gun owners coming together to help each other out and get things done!
How great would this small victory be for us all :?: :!: :?: :!:
Good motivation to do more of this TOGETHER rather than bending over and taking it.
:ugeek:

Papa Maksim would be so proud of us I bet! Let's get to the bottom of this TOGETHER :!:

I'm elated as I type this. Literally smiling from ear to ear!
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#28 1911Fan

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 01:07 PM

A firearm is only evil if it is in an evil mans hands.


I couldn't agree more. Well said.

They are really "peace-keeping" tools!
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#29 Guest__*

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Posted 10 October 2009 - 02:28 PM

i still dont understand why you are trying to bring this enormous spotlight to one of the few great gifts left in NJ...

the saiga is ONLY legal still because no one cares.. the more you question its legality.. the more you assume the posture that its an evil assault rifle.. the closer to extinction it gets... i mean dood just look at it in its stock form.. its a semi automatic sporting rifle.. NO pistol grip.. NO flash suppressor.... NO large capacity mag... NO bayonet lug.. its JUST a sporting rifle.. every moment that you question that.. you push it closer to the ban list... i can hear it now..

"dear attorney general.. i want to know if the rifle known as Saiga that is currently being sold across the state in gun shops is actually legal.. the reason i ask is it can be made to accept AK accessories... and has the same action as an AK.. and i dont want to buy it because im afraid that its actually being illegally sold.."

what does this accomplish.. ALL you are doing is waving a HUGE red flag...CAUSING members of our anti-gun government to further examine one of the last few AK variants we can still legally buy..

if you are too hesitant to own one even though its NOT listed on the AW ban.. even though by definition it is NOT substantially identical.. even though its been sold ALL OVER the state by legally run reputable gun shops.. that is your right and i FULLY respect that.. but i ask you.. please do not start sending letters to anyone.. because im SURE they will be forwarded out up the chain in command till someone decides that no they should not be legal.. and does something about it..

when you send a letter like that the first question that would come to my mind is "why does he think its illegal.. i better look into it"

do you still after all i have written think its illegal? do you think that gun shops throughout the state are illegally importing this gun into NJ and illegally selling it without anyone in the state noticing? call butch's gun world in vineland.. ask him if he still sells saigas.. ask him if they are legal.. you have spent a LOT of time listening to peoples arguments as to why they THINK they are illegal.. and i have gone through great lengths to try to explain to you why they still are.. but maybe you need to hear it from some other people..

i think that writing a letter is a bad idea.. it pull unwanted attention to the firearm.. AND you..

all of you saying he would be locked up.. thats fucking ridiculous.. if a cop EVER stopped me like at the range or something.. and questioned the Saiga.. i would show him my bill of sale from a legitimate gun store.. i would advise him that in NJ to be guilty of illegally possessing an "assault weapon" that the state has to PROVE that i have reasonable knowledge that the gun i own is in violation.. well the fact that i LEGALLY purchased it as a LICENSED gun shop would pretty much rule out me having ANY knowledge that its illegal.. since it would be against the law for a licensed dealer to sell me an illegal gun.. is this not one of the MAIN reasons you have to use an FFL when transferring a gun into the state.. to be sure that its not illegal..

while i DO understand your NJ paranoia.. i do not understand why you seem to ignore all the points i make to you..

like i said.. AK type denotes exactly that.. AK type... ak100 ak47 ak74 etc.. this is why they NAME other guns with "ak actions"....

#30 1911Fan

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  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 10 October 2009 - 03:54 PM

Damagedworld......I assure you that I have listened to every thing you said and have taken all of it into consideration.
The final factor in my decision was when I spoke to lawyers who said they would not take my case if it was an AK variant that caused the trouble but they would if it was an AR type other than the specific models listed in the statute I mentioned above.
That's what really made me decide I didn't want to take the chance. I am not paranoid at all - I don't want to end up like the guy that this exact thing happened to and all he did was go to the range each Sunday and his own neighbors called the cops on him. That's all. It cost him 30K to get out of trouble and in my mind, even $100 bucks is too much to have to pay to explain any firearm is not illegal.

I thought a clarifying letter would be a good idea since everyone is saying I am wrong about my interpretation of the law and it would clear the air once and for all but now I have changed my mind. You make a good point that it could turn out to be trouble for some law abiding FFL's and law abiding gun owners (for whom I would never wish to cause any unnecessary trouble because of my silly query - and I don't even know them - We need to stick together which is the same reason I refuse to bash that FFL that freaked out on me) so I withdraw my last post and once again apologize for ever posting this thread as my flame suit is burnt to a crisp and I have to go buy another :oops:

I will now go back to hoping and praying for incorporation to work out well for us and then my wife and I will each buy a currently banned Real AK Variant with as many "evil" features as possible the first day incorporation takes effect. :D

For now, I'm going to spend my money on an over/under shotgun - I held a few that felt perfect for me and look forward to trying some more out tomorrow at Central Jersey!
Now I am off to mow the lawn so I can go to the CJRPC shoot all day tomorrow from dusk till dawn knowing all of my chores are done! Hope to see you all there! And yes - I still take care of my own lawn and I am proud of it - It is the absolute nicest lawn in the neighborhood! :D

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