Transporting a handgun from NJ to PA for carry

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Chime in here:

I asked an unrelated question on PAFOA and a member is claiming that im in the red by bringing a handgun into PA for carry (I have a FL CCL) because its not for hunting, range, etc.

I'm not accusing him of being wrong (although I hope he is) but I was under the impression that the exception list of lawful purposes was more of an example list. I would obviously case and lock the handgun seperate from ammunition for the NJ portion of the journey.

 

If you could chime in here, or there, that would be great.

Thanks.

 

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry- ... y-zoo.html

[NJgunowner86 0]

PA CCW holder here.

 

He's right, you're in the red if bringing a gun to PA for CCW purposes only. NJ law makes it illegal to possess a gun in your car unless it's a specific set of purposes, none of them include bringing it.

 

But, who says you're not going to PA for range use? First off you have no duty to inform, and if you are found to have a handgun, just say you're on the way to _____name of range in PA_____ What can they do? Unless you're headed towards PA at midnight or something and obviously lying, how can they prove you're not headed to the gun range? NJSP gonna follow you out to PA and escort you to the range? If you get pulled over at 8am on a Sunday

 

Also, FOPA of 1986 protects you if traveling to a family member's, friend's, etc.'s house as long as the gun is legal in both states.

 

Me personally, I go out there once a week roughly, but it's not worth the hassle to carry and I don't bother. It's simply not worth the hassle of playing loading/unloading games soon as you get out the car on the other side.

 

You're talking about the Philly zoo. Philadelphia is just as hostile towards guns as NJ is, and I'm sure the sign has a no guns allowed sign posted anyway. Don't bother trying to carry at the Philly zoo. It's just not worth it.

[mipafox 438]

Look at it this way. Would you be legal if your destination was in Camden?

 

If the answer is Yes, then you are OK. FOPA does not protect you in the state of origin or the state of destination. And there is no exception for handgun transportation in NJ code about crossing a state line as far as I am aware.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

Does it have to be a range ??? I own a house there and like to shoot on my friends property.

[Malsua 1,422]

Does it have to be a range ??? I own a house there and like to shoot on my friends property.

 

Transporting from or to your home is perfectly legal including from one house to another that you own or live at.

[NJgunowner86 0]

Does it have to be a range ??? I own a house there and like to shoot on my friends property.

 

You're 100% legal transporting to PA.

 

If, for some reason, an NJ cop stopped you, all you say is you are bringing your gun to your other house.

 

Have it locked up as per state/federal laws. He doesn't need to see your PA permit, or know that you're bringing it there to carry. You're just transporting it from one dwelling to another and that's all he needs to know.

[mipafox 438]

If you are going to a house you own in PA, you can't get much more solid than that under NJ law from the little I know.

[Greydaddy 2]

So, you guys are saying, that when I go to my son's house in PA, or when I go camping in PA or to a gun show or whatever, I can't CC? Doesn't make any sense! What's the permit for?

[Malsua 1,422]

So, you guys are saying, that when I go to my son's house in PA, or when I go camping in PA or to a gun show or whatever, I can't CC? Doesn't make any sense! What's the permit for?

 

Not saying that at all. What is being said is that legally, you are only allowed to transport firearms inside NJ for the exempted reasons. Range, gunsmith, home, your own business and hunting. Traveling to PA to go shopping and carry is not an exempted reason. That said, you were going to the range weren't you?

[NJ609 22]

So are we saying that it's fine once you get into PA, but you need to have a "valid reason" to transport it through NJ?

[Malsua 1,422]

So are we saying that it's fine once you get into PA, but you need to have a "valid reason" to transport it through NJ?

 

That is correct. As someone said, if it's 11pm at night, you better be headed to a 24 hour firing range.

[Karatenurse 11]

I think the question would be? Why is it not valid to transport said firearm that you can legaly own at starting destination into PA, and then be able to CC as per PA laws. Ex. FLA CCW permit, for your own personal protection.

 

If one were leaving at 6am from NJ with gun locked in trunk, Ammo seperate, and you traveled to PA to Spend the day visiting friends or family and went out shopping for the day, as per Federal Transportation laws what would be wrong with this. Once you reach PA, what law does not allow you to then load and CCW while there. As long as when returning home you follow guidelines for traveling back here in NJ, Unloaded and locked in trunk....

 

I only ask because, 2 yrs back I traveled to Fla for a week vacation and once I left NJ and got to VA I loaded and CCW, except SC had to keep in glove box. When driving home before entering back into Jersey, Gun was unloaded and placed back in locked container and put in trunk, however we did not get home untill about 1am. What law did I break.

[unclenunzie 3]

So, you guys are saying, that when I go to my son's house in PA, or when I go camping in PA or to a gun show or whatever, I can't CC? Doesn't make any sense! What's the permit for?

 

Not saying that at all. What is being said is that legally, you are only allowed to transport firearms inside NJ for the exempted reasons. Range, gunsmith, home, your own business and hunting. Traveling to PA to go shopping and carry is not an exempted reason. That said, you were going to the range weren't you?

 

I could be wrong, but I believe "possession of that object is lawful" at the (other state) destination is what allows transport within NJ as per usual (unloaded/locked, etc). The NJSP.org website implies this in the section on hollow point use and transportation. Like the example given about an other-state hunting license supplying proof of legality in destination, I argue so does an other-state recognized carry license. The example is given in reference to "the federal statute", which I presume to be the firearm owners protection act:

 

http://njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html

 

excerpt, scroll to bold:

 

Related Links

linkFirearms Information

 

Provided certain conditions are met, a sportsman may transport and use hollow point ammunition. There are no restrictions preventing a sportsman from keeping such ammunition at his home.

 

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

 

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

 

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."

N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

 

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

 

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;

2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;

3.A person going directly to a target range, and;

4.A person going directly to an authorized place for "practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions."

 

As with other ammunition and firearms, a sportsman would have to comply with the provisions of N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f and g when transporting hollow nose ammunition to a target range. The ammunition should be stored in a closed and fastened container or locked in the trunk of the motor vehicle in which it is being transported. The course of travel should be as direct as possible when going to and leaving from the target range with "only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances." N.J.S.A 2C:39-6g.

 

If the sportsman's club member plans to hunt with a rifle and use hollow nose ammunition in a state where this is permitted, he must comply with the provisions of U.S.C.A. 926A and N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f) and (6)(g), which is consistent with the federal law, in transporting the firearm and ammunition. The firearm should be unloaded and neither the firearm nor the ammunition should be readily accessible from the passenger compartment. If the vehicle does not have a trunk, the firearm and the ammunition should be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or the console. 18 U.S.C.A. 926A.

 

In addition, the sportsman should have a valid hunting license in his possession from the state in which he plans to hunt and should be familiar with that state's gun laws. N.J.S.A 2C:39-6(f)(2) requires a person hunting in this State to have a valid hunting license in his possession while traveling to or from the hunting area. Hunting with hollow nose ammunition is permitted in New Jersey. In the case of a New Jersey resident traveling to another state to hunt, it logically would follow that the hunting license would be from the state where the hunter is going. Although the federal statute does not require possession of a hunting license, it does require that the person transporting the firearm be going to a state where possession of that object is lawful. A valid hunting license from that state effectively supplies the proof.

[Malsua 1,422]

The law on transport inside of NJ is very clear.

 

You are either within the exemptions or you are not. If you are transiting NJ(start and end in other states), federal law protects you. Because your destination begins or ends inside of NJ, you are subject to the laws of NJ. See the exemptions. Carrying to PA so you can CCW is not an exemption. It's that simple.

 

Now, in the real world, if a cop asks you about firearms and you tell him you're traveling to PA to go to your house or to target shoot, you're on your way.

 

If you tell him that you're going to holster up on the other side of the border, legally you are in jeopardy. Will he do something? Probably not. Just plan on going to the range every time you leave the state and you're good. If you never end up making it to the actual range, well, too bad, so sad.

 

Don't ever take a handgun into New York.

[djg0770 481]

Don't ever take a handgun into New York.

 

+1

[PK90 3,573]

Hard to post this from my phone, but I disagree. The FOPA covers transport within states as long as the possession is legal in the starting and ending States. NJ law takes precedent if no other state is involved.

[unclenunzie 3]

OK. (well, NOT OK, but ok). So on a vacation visit to Florida, a person can intend to hit the range once down there, and this makes transport to the airport NJ legal...? By this "legal logic" any trip to PA so long as you think you're going to a range during the trip, or maybe to cabela's because you want to get your handgun checked out smith wise, or maybe sell it, etc...

 

?? So just have intent and it's all good huh LOL

[Malsua 1,422]

Hard to post this from my phone, but I disagree. The FOPA covers transport within states as long as the possession is legal in the starting and ending States. NJ law takes precedent if no other state is involved.

 

NEW JERSEY--New Jersey laws governing firearms permits, purchaser identification cars, registration and licenses do not apply to a person who is transporting the firearm through this State if that person is transporting the firearm in a manner permitted by federal law. This federal law permitting interstate transportation of a firearm applies only if all of the following requirements are met: possession of the firearm was lawful in the state in which the journey began; the possession of the firearm will be lawful in the state in which the journey will end; the person is transporting the firearm for a lawful purpose; the firearm is unloaded; the firearm is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle; the ammunition is not directly accessible from the passenger compartment of the vehicle; if the vehicle does not have a compartment separate from he passenger compartment, the firearm and ammunition must be in a locked container other that the vehicle`s glove compartment or console. A person transporting a firearm through the State of New Jersey in the manner permitted by federal law need not give notice. Whenever an officer has probable cause to believe that a person`s possession of a firearm is in violation of New Jersey law and not permitted by federal law, then the law enforcement officer may make an arrest.

 

ALL the requirements above must be met. Key---> transporting the firearm for a lawful purpose. Transporting for the purpose of CCW in a different state is not a lawful purpose in NJ.

[Malsua 1,422]

OK. (well, NOT OK, but ok). So on a vacation visit to Florida, a person can intend to hit the range once down there, and this makes transport to the airport NJ legal...? By this "legal logic" any trip to PA so long as you think you're going to a range during the trip, or maybe to cabela's because you want to get your handgun checked out smith wise, or maybe sell it, etc...

 

?? So just have intent and it's all good huh LOL

 

Intent, yes. Cabelas(gunsmith), range trip, all good. Sell it? No good.

[NJ609 22]

I believe bringing it for gunsmithing is a valid reason as well. Gotta go to Cabellas to get it fixed. Or some crap like that....

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Why r we telling cops we have firearms in the car if we are being pulled over on way to PA?

[NJ609 22]

Why r we telling cops we have firearms in the car if we are being pulled over on way to PA?

 

We are not. But armchair lawyering is a fun way to pass time.

[mipafox 438]

Why r we telling cops we have firearms in the car if we are being pulled over on way to PA?

 

What is the second question out of a cop's mouth?

 

"Where you headed?"

 

If you say you are going to a range, he knows you have a gun. If you say you are going to your brother's house in PA, you have lost all defense for possession of a handgun in NJ. If you keep your mouth shut, who knows what an NJ cop will do.

 

Those are your three options. Are you going to tell him you are going to a range or not?

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Why r we telling cops we have firearms in the car if we are being pulled over on way to PA?

 

What is the second question out of a cop's mouth?

 

"Where you headed?"

 

If you say you are going to a range, he knows you have a gun. If you say you are going to your brother's house in PA, you have lost all defense for possession of a handgun in NJ. If you keep your mouth shut, who knows what an NJ cop will do.

 

Those are your three options. Are you going to tell him you are going to a range or not?

 

Absolutely not.

The guns would be locked in the trunk of my car and he has no business or right to know what is in my trunk if pulled over for a traffic violation.

I am also not under any legal obligation to factually tell him where I am headed.

[PK90 3,573]

ALL the requirements above must be met. Key---> transporting the firearm for a lawful purpose. Transporting for the purpose of CCW in a different state is not a lawful purpose in NJ.

I strongly disagree. It is lawful. 609-882-2000

[unclenunzie 3]

ALL the requirements above must be met. Key---> transporting the firearm for a lawful purpose. Transporting for the purpose of CCW in a different state is not a lawful purpose in NJ.

I strongly disagree. It is lawful. 609-882-2000

 

PK90, That would have been my response also, because NJ cannot decide what is legal in another state.

 

More armchair non-lawyer thoughts

If CCW is legal for a person in PA, that satisfies the listed requirement that it be legal in the starting/ending places. In other words, I start in NJ at home (legal) I properly transport (legal) to my destination in PA (for a lawful purpose there, not for lawful in PRNJ). As twisted and removed from any semblance of constitutionality as NJ's laws are, I simply cannot accept that a gun owner can't legally transport their gun(s) to a destination where they are 100% legal for a 100% legal purpose outside of NJ jurisdiction.

[Malsua 1,422]

If you are pulled over in NJ as NJ resident with firearms in the car, what transport exemption do you fall under?

 

Ok lets frame this differently.

 

What is to stop ANYONE that is pulled over from claiming that they are taking the guns to PA to CCW? The NJ cop has no ability to validate a CCW from any state other than NJ. The cop cannot determine that this is a lawful purpose. Drive around with a gun in your car, in the trunk...pulled over..claim you're going to PA. You think that would fly?

[Blackfox 1]

If you are pulled over in NJ as NJ resident with firearms in the car, what transport exemption do you fall under?

 

Ok lets frame this differently.

 

What is to stop ANYONE that is pulled over from claiming that they are taking the guns to PA to CCW? The NJ cop has no ability to validate a CCW from any state other than NJ. The cop cannot determine that this is a lawful purpose. Drive around with a gun in your car, in the trunk...pulled over..claim you're going to PA. You think that would fly?

 

Yes!!! if you're driving trough Newark at 24.00 hr

[mikeyboyeee 66]

If you are pulled over in NJ as NJ resident with firearms in the car, what transport exemption do you fall under?

 

Ok lets frame this differently.

 

What is to stop ANYONE that is pulled over from claiming that they are taking the guns to PA to CCW? The NJ cop has no ability to validate a CCW from any state other than NJ. The cop cannot determine that this is a lawful purpose. Drive around with a gun in your car, in the trunk...pulled over..claim you're going to PA. You think that would fly?

 

Same nothing to stop anyone from claiming they are going to any destination with anything in their trunk.

 

They have no way to validate I am going to a range in any state, dunkin donuts, a hospital, fishing on my boat or to get a rub and tug at the local massage parlor.

[Malsua 1,422]

 

Same nothing to stop anyone from claiming they are going to any destination with anything in their trunk.

 

They have no way to validate I am going to a range in any state, dunkin donuts, a hospital, fishing on my boat or to get a rub and tug at the local massage parlor.

 

This is true. If however he asks "are there firearms in the vehicle" and your response is: "Yes", you've got to have a reason in NJ. If you say no, and ultimately your car gets searched, you're in for a spitstorm and at least an evening in the greybar hotel. If you give him a plausible reason, within the exemptions for transport in NJ, chances are he's going to let you go.

 

Do you think "I'm planning to go to PA so I can carry my firearm" will win any favor with the patrolman?