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Let's talk about modifying Zastava PAP to accept AK magz


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#1 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:07 PM

so Let's talk about modifying Zastava PAP to accept normal double stack AK magazines.... anybody done it, seen it, head of it?
and more importantly for me pls advice on the legality of this mod. 922a applies? if i change it to accept AK magz, do i have to change other parts to US manufactured ones? wat other issues i mite run into? thank you !

EDIT: is there a 15rd AK mag out there?
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#2 sirsloop

sirsloop

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:19 PM

Hmm... modifying your SKS to accept AK mags makes it a *NAMED assault weapon right (SKS with detachable magazine type)? If you somehow modify something else to accept a AK mag for example... its not illegal then right as long as you follow the rest of the evil assault limitations?
JD

#3 lunker

lunker
  • LocationSandy Hook
  • Home Range:Central Jersey R&PC

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:26 PM

There are Federal import restrictions that must be obeyed if you modify an imported gun from its sporterized import-friendly configuration. This is a hassle for a lot of imports, but it comes up a lot with AKs because nearly all are foreign made and people in free states want to throw on better parts and standard capacity magazines. Being in NJ, I have left my AK clones in their original imported configuration.

http://www.922r.com/
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rParts
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

Chris

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -George Bernard Shaw

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." - Thucydides.

 

 

 

 


#4 glennp

glennp
  • Home Range:Somerset County Fish & Game in Bridgewater

Posted 18 August 2010 - 03:27 PM

The SKS thing is because your going from non detachable ( you can have all the evil crap you want) to detachable (AWB now applies) and if its a C&R imported gun, you activate 922 by modding it.

With the PAP your keeping its NJ legal status, and its fed status. All your doing is going from one style of non-US part to another style of non-US part. Its legal. Now, if the existing magazine is american made (which it isnt) because it HAS to be to maintain legal 922 status on the rifle, the mod is legal but a non US mag would not be legal. But this is not your case.
Silent souls leave .308 holes

#5 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 18 August 2010 - 06:01 PM

Ugh, so much inaccuracy here.

In order to make a PAP take AK magazines, you need to do two things:

1. Comply with NJ and Federal Law. NJ law allows a PAP with 10/15 round AK magazines. It is not an "assault weapon". To comply with Federal Law, you need to make it comply with 922r. You'll hear a lot of people make a big deal about 922r but it is very simple - your rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign made parts.

To achieve 922r compliance with a PAP you would need to add 5 US parts. The easiest way to do this, costing the least amount of money, would be to use US made AK magazines only (TAPCO and SGM Tactical make 10 and 15 round US made AK magazines) and change out your fire control group, which is 3 parts, to a US made TAPCO G2 or Arsenal trigger group. Changing the fire control group is done with your bare hands and the parts simply come out on push pins. These two things replace 6 foreign parts from your gun, put you at 9 foreign parts, 6 US make your rifle legal under both federal and state law.

2. Open the magazine well - to do this, you will need a blueprint of an AK receiver, a Dremel with tungsten carbide cutter, and some patience. You would then mill out the magazine well and widen it.

#6 sirsloop

sirsloop

Posted 18 August 2010 - 07:58 PM

WTF... who flippin cares where the sh*t is made... these sounds like retarded ass laws :facepalm:
JD

#7 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:05 PM

WTF... who flippin cares where the sh*t is made... these sounds like retarded a** laws :facepalm:


Yeah, it's bull. Regardless, it's Federal law, so it's a good idea to comply with it :p

Thank Reagan, Bush 41 and Clinton for all the anti-import ammo/gun/etc. bullshit.

#8 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:09 AM

Ugh, so much inaccuracy here.

In order to make a PAP take AK magazines, you need to do two things:

1. Comply with NJ and Federal Law. NJ law allows a PAP with 10/15 round AK magazines. It is not an "assault weapon". To comply with Federal Law, you need to make it comply with 922r. You'll hear a lot of people make a big deal about 922r but it is very simple - your rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign made parts.

To achieve 922r compliance with a PAP you would need to add 5 US parts. The easiest way to do this, costing the least amount of money, would be to use US made AK magazines only (TAPCO and SGM Tactical make 10 and 15 round US made AK magazines) and change out your fire control group, which is 3 parts, to a US made TAPCO G2 or Arsenal trigger group. Changing the fire control group is done with your bare hands and the parts simply come out on push pins. These two things replace 6 foreign parts from your gun, put you at 9 foreign parts, 6 US make your rifle legal under both federal and state law.

2. Open the magazine well - to do this, you will need a blueprint of an AK receiver, a Dremel with tungsten carbide cutter, and some patience. You would then mill out the magazine well and widen it.


sorry i got confused a lil. so the trigger group = 3 parts + US made magazine = 1 one part? >>> makes it 4 parts? why re u sayin its 6 parts?
changing a OEM gas piston to a US made one counts as a 1 part also, rite?
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#9 Radek

Radek
  • Location07095
  • Home Range:OBRPC, Fort Dix

Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:35 AM

Ugh! @ tuktuk, please, please use proper English and grammar. It's driving me nuts to read your posts.

Also, try and use Google whenever you can. There is plenty clear information repeated ad-infinitum on this subject. Then, if you are still confused about AK's and 922, etc., ask away ... but before then let the web do it for you. Sorry for being terse, but I see the same thing on this forum again and again. And I am still surprised that many forum members are so patient! Wow.
Officer: Do you know why I pulled you over?

Smart Driver: Officer, what I think is not nearly as important as what you think because you are going to cite me for what YOU think.

#10 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:37 AM

Ugh, so much inaccuracy here.

In order to make a PAP take AK magazines, you need to do two things:

1. Comply with NJ and Federal Law. NJ law allows a PAP with 10/15 round AK magazines. It is not an "assault weapon". To comply with Federal Law, you need to make it comply with 922r. You'll hear a lot of people make a big deal about 922r but it is very simple - your rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign made parts.

To achieve 922r compliance with a PAP you would need to add 5 US parts. The easiest way to do this, costing the least amount of money, would be to use US made AK magazines only (TAPCO and SGM Tactical make 10 and 15 round US made AK magazines) and change out your fire control group, which is 3 parts, to a US made TAPCO G2 or Arsenal trigger group. Changing the fire control group is done with your bare hands and the parts simply come out on push pins. These two things replace 6 foreign parts from your gun, put you at 9 foreign parts, 6 US make your rifle legal under both federal and state law.

2. Open the magazine well - to do this, you will need a blueprint of an AK receiver, a Dremel with tungsten carbide cutter, and some patience. You would then mill out the magazine well and widen it.


sorry i got confused a lil. so the trigger group = 3 parts + US made magazine = 1 one part? >>> makes it 4 parts? why re u sayin its 6 parts?
changing a OEM gas piston to a US made one counts as a 1 part also, rite?


Trigger group is 3 parts (for 922r purposes) = Hammer, Trigger, and Disconnector
Magazine is 3 parts (for 922r purposes) = Follower, Floorplate, and Body

Here's a checklist to work with for 922r:
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

Start with "Muzzle Attachment" un-checked, as you do not have one. From there, uncheck various parts to see what combinations are legal or not. For safety's sake, pretend your rifle has a pistol grip.

#11 junkmanted

junkmanted
  • LocationLivingston nj
  • Home Range:PA

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:21 AM

Ugh! @ tuktuk, please, please use proper English and grammar. It's driving me nuts to read your posts.

Also, try and use Google whenever you can. There is plenty clear information repeated ad-infinitum on this subject. Then, if you are still confused about AK's and 922, etc., ask away ... but before then let the web do it for you. Sorry for being terse, but I see the same thing on this forum again and again. And I am still surprised that many forum members are so patient! Wow.


tuktuk
ask what you will this is a gun forum not a spelling bee
if you need help ask me and as you can see by my grammer its with the gun.
if you want to put the gun in a small milling machine swing by

Posted Image

#12 lunker

lunker
  • LocationSandy Hook
  • Home Range:Central Jersey R&PC

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:42 AM

TukTuk has nothing on Scrap. Try reading his posts and you will think TukTuk is a model of clarity. :)

Chris

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. -George Bernard Shaw

"The state that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting by fools." - Thucydides.

 

 

 

 


#13 Guest__*

Guest__*

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:28 AM

Ugh, so much inaccuracy here.

In order to make a PAP take AK magazines, you need to do two things:

1. Comply with NJ and Federal Law. NJ law allows a PAP with 10/15 round AK magazines. It is not an "assault weapon". To comply with Federal Law, you need to make it comply with 922r. You'll hear a lot of people make a big deal about 922r but it is very simple - your rifle cannot have more than 10 foreign made parts.

To achieve 922r compliance with a PAP you would need to add 5 US parts. The easiest way to do this, costing the least amount of money, would be to use US made AK magazines only (TAPCO and SGM Tactical make 10 and 15 round US made AK magazines) and change out your fire control group, which is 3 parts, to a US made TAPCO G2 or Arsenal trigger group. Changing the fire control group is done with your bare hands and the parts simply come out on push pins. These two things replace 6 foreign parts from your gun, put you at 9 foreign parts, 6 US make your rifle legal under both federal and state law.

2. Open the magazine well - to do this, you will need a blueprint of an AK receiver, a Dremel with tungsten carbide cutter, and some patience. You would then mill out the magazine well and widen it.



good info here.. the Tapco G2 is actually a pretty nice FCG anyway..

#14 Caine

Caine
  • LocationEssex County
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge/BulletHole/Bayonne/Range14

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:59 AM

And I am still surprised that many forum members are so patient! Wow.

I was thinking the same thing... altho not so much about tuktuk... :roll:
-Pete
"I care not what others think of what I do, but I care very much about what I think of what I do." - Theodore Roosevelt
Όποιος γίνεται πρόβατο, τον τρώει ο λύκος

#15 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:23 PM

if you want to put the gun in a small milling machine swing by


Tuktuk this guy just made you the offer of a lifetime! A milling machine is a million times easier than with a Dremel. Get in contact with this guy :)

#16 jeff47

jeff47

Posted 19 August 2010 - 01:48 PM

15 Rd AK magazines only exist when someone makes them That having been said if you're going to stop by and have junkmanted help you opening up the mag well (very gracious on his part I might add), he can also supply you magazines through his PA hook up. Contact him first obviously.

As far as 922 stuff there are 16 AK specific parts:
1. Muzzle device
2. Barrel
3. Gas piston
4. Handguards
5. Trunion (this is the front trunion, the rear trunion does not count)
6. Bolt carrier
7. Bolt
8. Receiver
9. Pistol grip
10. Buttstock
11. Hammer
12. Sear
13. Trigger
14. Magazine body
15. Mag. Floorplate
16. Mag. follower

There seems to be some confusion within the community and I don't believe ATF has made a ruling as to whether or not a muzzle nut is considered a muzzle device or not so keep that in mind. If you want to change the gas piston there is an excellent tuturial on AK-Builder.com.

There is a guy on the akfiles with the handle 'Ronin' who makes excellent US made grips in a variety of styles (Romanian, Yugo, East German, Israeli, I think he makes 8-12 different kinds) that are excellent. I've got several grips from him and they are awesome.

In my opinion you want to avoid relying on Mag parts as you are technically breaking the law if you use different mags that are not compliant but to each his own.

Good luck.

#17 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 19 August 2010 - 04:53 PM

15 Rd AK magazines only exist when someone makes them That having been said if you're going to stop by and have junkmanted help you opening up the mag well (very gracious on his part I might add), he can also supply you magazines through his PA hook up. Contact him first obviously.

As far as 922 stuff there are 16 AK specific parts:
1. Muzzle device
2. Barrel
3. Gas piston
4. Handguards
5. Trunion (this is the front trunion, the rear trunion does not count)
6. Bolt carrier
7. Bolt
8. Receiver
9. Pistol grip
10. Buttstock
11. Hammer
12. Sear
13. Trigger
14. Magazine body
15. Mag. Floorplate
16. Mag. follower

There seems to be some confusion within the community and I don't believe ATF has made a ruling as to whether or not a muzzle nut is considered a muzzle device or not so keep that in mind. If you want to change the gas piston there is an excellent tuturial on AK-Builder.com.

There is a guy on the akfiles with the handle 'Ronin' who makes excellent US made grips in a variety of styles (Romanian, Yugo, East German, Israeli, I think he makes 8-12 different kinds) that are excellent. I've got several grips from him and they are awesome.

In my opinion you want to avoid relying on Mag parts as you are technically breaking the law if you use different mags that are not compliant but to each his own.

Good luck.


Sear is a countable part but not on the AK since it is integrated with the trigger, and the Zastava has an unthreaded muzzle so no attachment. Also you forgot disconnector which is a countable part. His rifle has 15 parts for 922r purposes.

Also, SGM tactical makes 15 round "AK" magazines: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... 5rd/Detail

Description has a typo on that website, it is in fact 15 rounds. The same company also makes 102, and 20's and 30's for people in the USA.

#18 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:04 PM

Thank You very much JMaster. this is a very generous offer and i mite take u up on it in the future 8)
and Thank You everyone for great intel. now i pretty much know where to start. when i get all the parts together for the project i will run by u one more time just to make sure.
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#19 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:06 PM

15 Rd AK magazines only exist when someone makes them That having been said if you're going to stop by and have junkmanted help you opening up the mag well (very gracious on his part I might add), he can also supply you magazines through his PA hook up. Contact him first obviously.

As far as 922 stuff there are 16 AK specific parts:
1. Muzzle device
2. Barrel
3. Gas piston
4. Handguards
5. Trunion (this is the front trunion, the rear trunion does not count)
6. Bolt carrier
7. Bolt
8. Receiver
9. Pistol grip
10. Buttstock
11. Hammer
12. Sear
13. Trigger
14. Magazine body
15. Mag. Floorplate
16. Mag. follower

There seems to be some confusion within the community and I don't believe ATF has made a ruling as to whether or not a muzzle nut is considered a muzzle device or not so keep that in mind. If you want to change the gas piston there is an excellent tuturial on AK-Builder.com.

There is a guy on the akfiles with the handle 'Ronin' who makes excellent US made grips in a variety of styles (Romanian, Yugo, East German, Israeli, I think he makes 8-12 different kinds) that are excellent. I've got several grips from him and they are awesome.

In my opinion you want to avoid relying on Mag parts as you are technically breaking the law if you use different mags that are not compliant but to each his own.

Good luck.


Sear is a countable part but not on the AK since it is integrated with the trigger, and the Zastava has an unthreaded muzzle so no attachment. Also you forgot disconnector which is a countable part. His rifle has 15 parts for 922r purposes.

Also, SGM tactical makes 15 round "AK" magazines: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... 5rd/Detail

Description has a typo on that website, it is in fact 15 rounds. The same company also makes 102, and 20's and 30's for people in the USA.


i thought saiga magz are different from regular AK magz, no?
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#20 jeff47

jeff47

Posted 19 August 2010 - 08:38 PM

Yes I meant disconnector and not sear, thats what i get for copying and pasting. Of course the sear is a seperate FCG part, they just frown on you when you install it. :naughty:

He's got a muzzle break so I was assuming he was planning to thread the muzzle?

ETA: Actually I think I'm confusing these 2 threads but...

Sear is a countable part but not on the AK since it is integrated with the trigger, and the Zastava has an unthreaded muzzle so no attachment. Also you forgot disconnector which is a countable part. His rifle has 15 parts for 922r purposes.

Also, SGM tactical makes 15 round "AK" magazines: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... 5rd/Detail

Description has a typo on that website, it is in fact 15 rounds. The same company also makes 102, and 20's and 30's for people in the USA.



#21 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:18 PM

Yes I meant disconnector and not sear, thats what i get for copying and pasting. Of course the sear is a seperate FCG part, they just frown on you when you install it. :naughty:

He's got a muzzle break so I was assuming he was planning to thread the muzzle?

ETA: Actually I think I'm confusing these 2 threads but...


Sear is a countable part but not on the AK since it is integrated with the trigger, and the Zastava has an unthreaded muzzle so no attachment. Also you forgot disconnector which is a countable part. His rifle has 15 parts for 922r purposes.

Also, SGM tactical makes 15 round "AK" magazines: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... 5rd/Detail

Description has a typo on that website, it is in fact 15 rounds. The same company also makes 102, and 20's and 30's for people in the USA.


i think it gets a lil more complicated with a muzzle break, no? since i have to weld it on... althou i do know a really good welder
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#22 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 19 August 2010 - 09:49 PM

15 Rd AK magazines only exist when someone makes them That having been said if you're going to stop by and have junkmanted help you opening up the mag well (very gracious on his part I might add), he can also supply you magazines through his PA hook up. Contact him first obviously.

As far as 922 stuff there are 16 AK specific parts:
1. Muzzle device
2. Barrel
3. Gas piston
4. Handguards
5. Trunion (this is the front trunion, the rear trunion does not count)
6. Bolt carrier
7. Bolt
8. Receiver
9. Pistol grip
10. Buttstock
11. Hammer
12. Sear
13. Trigger
14. Magazine body
15. Mag. Floorplate
16. Mag. follower

There seems to be some confusion within the community and I don't believe ATF has made a ruling as to whether or not a muzzle nut is considered a muzzle device or not so keep that in mind. If you want to change the gas piston there is an excellent tuturial on AK-Builder.com.

There is a guy on the akfiles with the handle 'Ronin' who makes excellent US made grips in a variety of styles (Romanian, Yugo, East German, Israeli, I think he makes 8-12 different kinds) that are excellent. I've got several grips from him and they are awesome.

In my opinion you want to avoid relying on Mag parts as you are technically breaking the law if you use different mags that are not compliant but to each his own.

Good luck.


Sear is a countable part but not on the AK since it is integrated with the trigger, and the Zastava has an unthreaded muzzle so no attachment. Also you forgot disconnector which is a countable part. His rifle has 15 parts for 922r purposes.

Also, SGM tactical makes 15 round "AK" magazines: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... 5rd/Detail

Description has a typo on that website, it is in fact 15 rounds. The same company also makes 102, and 20's and 30's for people in the USA.


i thought saiga magz are different from regular AK magz, no?


Only difference between a Saiga magazine and an AK magazine is that the Saiga magazine has a little tab on the front of it to serve as a feed ramp as Saigas leave the factory without a feed ramp. To make a Saiga magazine fit in a gun like a PAP, or WASR, etc. all you need to do is file the little tab off the magazine, only takes a couple minutes.

#23 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 19 August 2010 - 10:27 PM


i thought saiga magz are different from regular AK magz, no?


Only difference between a Saiga magazine and an AK magazine is that the Saiga magazine has a little tab on the front of it to serve as a feed ramp as Saigas leave the factory without a feed ramp. To make a Saiga magazine fit in a gun like a PAP, or WASR, etc. all you need to do is file the little tab off the magazine, only takes a couple minutes.


sweeeeeet. thank u for the tip
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#24 FFDP82

FFDP82

Posted 19 August 2010 - 11:00 PM

sweeeeeet. thank u for the tip


I should also add that by fit a PAP or WASR, I mean one that has been milled out and can take double stack magazines. A single stack PAP or WASR will not take a Saiga magazine even with the tab ground off as the magazine well is not wide enough of course.

#25 tuktuk

tuktuk
  • LocationFair Lawn
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge

Posted 19 August 2010 - 11:39 PM


sweeeeeet. thank u for the tip


I should also add that by fit a PAP or WASR, I mean one that has been milled out and can take double stack magazines. A single stack PAP or WASR will not take a Saiga magazine even with the tab ground off as the magazine well is not wide enough of course.


hehe of course ...
"Danger - if you meet it promptly and without flinching - you will reduce the danger by half. Never run away from
anything. Never!" Winston Churchill

for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return...

#26 Scrap

Scrap
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 23 August 2010 - 07:48 PM

Any info on changing/upgrading the furniture on the PAP? I called EAA they said they're going to try to find me some...

I would be interested in the wood furniture or even better, a more traditional AK buttock and pistol grip... this is not my forte so as always, info is appreciated.
Detective Paul Diskant: "Shouldn't we roll with backup??!" --- Tom Ludlow: "F*&# Back-up." Street Kings

#27 glennp

glennp
  • Home Range:Somerset County Fish & Game in Bridgewater

Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:17 PM

Any info on changing/upgrading the furniture on the PAP? I called EAA they said they're going to try to find me some...

I would be interested in the wood furniture or even better, a more traditional AK buttock and pistol grip... this is not my forte so as always, info is appreciated.



Any yugo furniture should fit but dont quote me on that...
Silent souls leave .308 holes

#28 Scrap

Scrap
  • LocationFlorida

Posted 23 August 2010 - 10:52 PM

Any yugo furniture should fit but dont quote me on that...


I was told that, and please forgive me if I'm wrong because I am not a gun expert, but I was told that regular Yugo furniture does NOT work because of the "trunonions" or something like that being "Sliced on an angle?" ...

and therefore they need their own special designed stuff.

But please feel free to chime in here with the truth / drop the knowledge /etc. Thanks muchl
Detective Paul Diskant: "Shouldn't we roll with backup??!" --- Tom Ludlow: "F*&# Back-up." Street Kings

#29 jeff47

jeff47

Posted 24 August 2010 - 02:49 PM

The rear stock on a Yugo only fits other Yugo rifles (or the tabuk). The Rear trunnion is completely different and attaches via a long bolt that goes through the stock from the back to the front as opposed to standard AKM furniture that uses the 2 tang screws.

I'm not sure about the front handguards but considering that the Front trunnion on the Yugo rifles are different as well (but they are the same as the front trunnions of other com block RPK's) I'm guessing they may not fit either.




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