OFFICIAL ZOMBIE COURSE THREAD

[EchoMirage 137]

just made this so the talk wont get buried in the other thread, and so that thread can stay on its own topic.

[tsafa 2]

Thanks for opening the thread EchoMirage. I will repost some of what I said in the other thread for the benefit of people who had not seen the discussion in the other thread.

 

The relative posts are:

 

I got a new site up relative to the Zombie Range.

 

http://www.poconotactical.com/

 

Both the webpage and the range itself will be underdevelopment for the next few months. Both are usable in their current form.

 

A few words about me so everyone know where I am shooting from (pun intended)

 

I'm just a regular guy, with a regular job that likes to shoot and hated living in anti-gun NYC where I was born and grew up. I bought a property out in PA so I can own and shoot guns. At some point I decided I wanted to both expand the range for my personal use and share the fun with other people. I have always believed that the key to keeping and expanding gun rights is to bring in new people (who don't shoot) and get them involved in shooting and gun ownership. The newbies and inexperienced shooters are most important because they will turn into voters for pro-gun rights candidates. This is one of the reasons I encourage people to bring their wives, girlfriends and even kids. That's right... on my range minors are allowed to shoot too under my guidance and supervision. Those kids are future voters!

 

Now... with regard to the prices... a very fair question. My biggest cost is not the ammo. Not even the guns. My biggest cost is Time. From the time the newbie arrives at my range it typically takes 90 minutes to shoot 100 rounds of .22. When that 90 minutes has finished the average wife, girlfriend or 10 year old can now safely and competently shoot a .22 rifle and a .22 revolver. All for the cost of $50. That money does not go and sit in a bank account. It gets reinvested back into the Range in the form of expansion and more guns.

 

What about Advanced Shooters on a Zombie course? I did some test runs today over the 150 foot course I have so far to see how it would likely run. In order for this to work, I, as the Range Safety Officer, would have to follow the shooter through the course. Unlike, a regular range, it will take 3 to 4 times longer to shoot the same quantity of ammo as the shooter searches out the targets down range. This is with the range free of any foliage. When the bushes start to grow in (and I lengthen the range) it will easily take 10 times longer. Also, unlike a regular pistol or rifle range, there can only be one active shooter at a time on a Zombie Course because the shooter is moving. Having two active shooters presents a danger I can not control since their is no fixed line.

 

So as you can see... even with advanced shooters, the range time consumption goes up on a Zombie Course. That also means that since I must be present on the Zombie Course, I can not be training those all important newbies. It is worth noting also that at that money paid by those newbies has gone into building the Zombie Course. It cost $2,000 just to rent the excavator over the weekend and dig out the course... Not to mention the 30 hours I spent doing the digging. If I had paid a contractor it would have cost upwards of $6,000 just for the 150 feet... and I still want to dig out another 300 feet. Then there is the cost of the steel targets I would like to get that run an average of $150 to $200 each ($400 for the real good ones). I will need at least 20 of them. Preferable 40. That's 8K for the cheaper ones.

 

I don't want to publicize it on the webpage, but if someone wants to bring there own guns and ammo, I will give them a discount. However, like I mention since I buy ammo in bulk, my biggest cost is not ammo. It is time. To give an example, I normally charge $30 for a box of 9mm with a gun to shoot the 50 rounds. If someone wants to come to my range with their own gun and ammo to shoot, I would charge $20 for every box they shoot. They get a $10 discount for the 9mm.

 

I just wanted to lay all my cards on the table, because I respect you guys. Now that you all know what is involved, I am open to any and all suggestions and advice. In the meantime... I will start reading through this long thread to see what I can pick up in the form of advice.

 

Thank You Kindly,

Bill Tsafa

http://www.poconotactical.com/

 

 

For now the biggest issue is moving a few hundred tons of dirt. It would take a thousand of us, working everyday, months to complete with pick and shovel. The easiest way to get that done is by renting a big expensive machine. I already charged up 2k this month on my credit card for the machine to dig out the 150 feet. I will have to wait until next month to bring the machine back when I have some more money. I don't know how, this will go over... but since the problem right now is financing the continued construction... I am thinking if anyone wanted to contribute $100... I would give them one whole month of unlimited shooting on the range during the weekend with their own guns and ammo. $200 would get them two months of weekend shooting (10 am to 5pm).... $300 for three months... and so on... If 20 people committed to this and came over this weekend with money, I would be able to bring the excavator back next weekend and dig another 200 feet. That way you would have the use of longer range for the money you put in. If you guys want, you can come to the property this weekend and look over the work I have done so far. I will be able to better explain where it is going.

 

We can do a group shoot. On a wed I would ask for $400. On a weekend I would ask for $600. If you can get 20 people in your group that is only $30 per person on a weekend. We can get up to five experienced shooters on the line at a time. If you guys want to try the Zombie Course, all other shooting must stop. We can run it from 11 till 5pm with your guys bringing your own guns and ammo. That money would help me get the excavator back to the range sooner rather then later.

 

 

Sure. Just remember that for safety reasons, only one person can shoot on the Zombie Course at a time. During that time the pistol and rifle range are closed because the entrance to the Zombie course is half way down the rifle range.

 

Shooting starts after 11 am, so we don't become a noise nuisance and can run till about 5pm when the sun starts setting. After, we can lock up the guns, start a campfire and pop a few beers, invite some girls to dance around the campfire

 

The address is 1574 Route 196, Tobyhanna, PA 18466. It may not come up on mapquest because it is less then a year old. I don't post the address on the poconotactical.com webpage because I don't want people just showing up. The range is only operational when I am there.

 

I will leave it up to you guys to work out among yourselves which day you want to come. When you do so, please have one person in your group collect the money in advance... otherwise you will find yourselves with some last minute cancellations and the other groupmembers having to pay a larger share of the bill. This is a common problem with NRA courses I have given.

 

I just finished digging it out. It is nothing more then a big 150x20 curvy trench at this point that is 8 feet deep. What it offers is the ability to safely shoot to the sides as you move through it. This is not something you can do on a standard range. The targets are simple paper targets over propped up plywood. With time and money I will be able to develop it further. As soon as I am done digging out another 300 feet (+4K), I will buy some steel targets that fall back when you shoot them (+4K).

 

In its current condition people may not be very impressed if they show up expecting to shoot on the zombie course... but will be very impressed coming to just shoot on a standard range and find their is a Zombie Course available too. I guess its a matter of perception. I think it might be better if you guys just wait an let me finish so you are impressed with it, rather then come now and be disappointed. It will definitely be complete by spring 2011.

 

I am also wondering... the conditions at Mt. Pocono through the winter can be 10 degrees with two feet of snow. How many people would want to go through the Zombie course in those conditions?

 

 

I found myself very surprised yesterday as I went through the zombie course with my Keltec P11. I am normally a pretty decent shot on a standard pistol range, but when you start moving and shooting at multiple targets its a totally different ball game. My mistake for thinking I was good enough to clear it out with small pistol. Next time I will use a rifle. I taught myself a nice lesson in humility.

 

I am looking for any input people have to offer.

[Wolfy 51]

Yay it's own thread.

 

This sounds cool. I wish we had something like this in NJ.

[Wolfy 51]

Who wants to go on a road trip?

[tsafa 2]

Yay it's own thread.

 

This sounds cool. I wish we had something like this in NJ.

 

I wanted to have something like this in NY, but they would not let me... So I left them. Now NY no longer gets my tax money

 

The range in about 30 minutes from the NJ border when you cross into PA on I80.

 

btw... I can see that there are some really cool people on this board. I'm glad Px4storm, hooked me up with you guys.

[KpdPipes 388]

Yay it's own thread.

 

This sounds cool. I wish we had something like this in NJ.

 

I wanted to have something like this in NY, but they would not let me... So I left them. Now they now NY no longer gets my tax money

 

The range in about 30 minutes from the NJ border when you cross into PA on I80.

 

I'm game to help out with some of the Scut Work schedule permitting.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

If someone goes there, be sure to bring a video camera to do a walkthrough video so we can see!

[tsafa 2]

If someone goes there, be sure to bring a video camera to do a walkthrough video so we can see!

 

Well... like I said before, at this point it is a very basic 150x20 foot curvy trench that is 8 feet deep. It will not reach the level of awesomeness that I have envisioned until it goes 600 feet and the bushes grow in to hide the targets. For now the benefit that you have over a regular range is that you can move forward through it and shoot to the sides. I don't know of any other ranges in the area that are set up like this. If people come with high expectations, they will be disappointed right now because the range is not complete. If they come thinking that they are going to a regular shooting range, they will be very impressed with the additional capabilities of this range.

 

Just to further illustrate... the zombie course is actually 180 feet long but I only list it as 150 feet on my website because I really don't want people to be disappointed. I am considering that people in practice will only walk in 150 feet. They are not going to actually walk up to the end of the trench and touch the wall.

[EchoMirage 137]

we could have an early, preliminary day, just to get some people out there, check out the ride/area, and see what the range is like. we can then offer suggestions and see who is able to help over the fall/winter, then open fully in spring 2011.

 

PX said before no rifles......that still in effect, or can rifles be added when the range gets built more.

[tsafa 2]

we could have an early, preliminary day, just to get some people out there, check out the ride/area, and see what the range is like. we can then offer suggestions and see who is able to help over the fall/winter, then open fully in spring 2011.

 

PX said before no rifles......that still in effect, or can rifles be added when the range gets built more.

 

 

Rifles are perfectly fine right now. Rapid fire is totally cool too. There must have been a misunderstanding with regard to the rifles. Infact, I tried to use my concealed carry pistol yesterday and found that it was somewhat useless. I went from being a very good shot on a standard pistol range to a very lousy shot in a tactical situation. Shooting tactical is very different. I definitely plan to use a rifle the next time I am on the range.

[Wolfy 51]

You are only 30 mins over the border? I am central Joisey and my Sprint navigation on my Evo tells me it is a 2 1/2 hr trip. To have the place to ourselves I would make the trip.

[tsafa 2]

You are only 30 mins over the border? I am central Joisey and my Sprint navigation on my Evo tells me it is a 2 1/2 hr trip. To have the place to ourselves I would make the trip.

 

It takes me 2 hours to get there from Brooklyn if there is no traffic. I take the turnpike to I78, to 24, to I80.

[JimmyAGR 54]

Sounds like a great road trip. I am in for a group shoot. Just curious as to the legality of carrying pistols to America from here?

[Wolfy 51]

Just load your vehicle to be NJ compliant and you will be ok.

[JimmyAGR 54]

Just load your vehicle to be NJ compliant and you will be ok.

 

Thanks, was hoping it would be that simple.

[KpdPipes 388]

If someone goes there, be sure to bring a video camera to do a walkthrough video so we can see!

 

Well... like I said before, at this point it is a very basic 150x20 foot curvy trench that is 8 feet deep. It will not reach the level of awesomeness that I have envisioned until it goes 600 feet and the bushes grow in to hide the targets. For now the benefit that you have over a regular range is that you can move forward through it and shoot to the sides. I don't know of any other ranges in the area that are set up like this. If people come with high expectations, they will be disappointed right now because the range is not complete. If they come thinking that they are going to a regular shooting range, they will be very impressed with the additional capabilities of this range.

 

Just to further illustrate... the zombie course is actually 180 feet long but I only list it as 150 feet on my website because I really don't want people to be disappointed. I am considering that people in practice will only walk in 150 feet. They are not going to actually walk up to the end of the trench and touch the wall.

 

Now, if you could have lockers to rent for a reasonable fee, where we PRNJ'ers could say, Store magazines that would be Evil to own here...... (yeah, thats a hint)

[vjf915 456]

This definitely sounds like a GREAT experience. TSA I REALLY hope you stick around on this forum and keep us updated. I would love to try this next summer.

[fliks 20]

wow, this totally evolved while I was away at work... it evolved into total awesomeness!! I'd be down for a group shoot, granted "the boss" and the little ones can stand without me for a whole day. I'm also in that area visiting my wife's family once in a while (that's how I found Bill in the first place). and as for shooting in 10 degree weather - you'd be surprised... some long-johns and waterproof clothes fix all that...

[tsafa 2]

 

Now, if you could have lockers to rent for a reasonable fee, where we PRNJ'ers could say, Store magazines that would be Evil to own here...... (yeah, thats a hint)

 

That is a minor detail that can easily be worked out. I have a 3 bedroom house on the property and no wife or kids... I am sure I can find some place (like maybe those two empty bedrooms) to store your hi capacity 100 round drums, lol. Yeah, I forgot to mention that the 30 round mags will be for the newbies on my range

 

Seriously though, the bigger issue that I am going to have to work out over the next few months is the prices. There was some resistance in the other thread to the pricing schedule as I have it set up now. I herd some people say they were comfortable with a group shoot where I charge $600 for a 6 hour shoot and they bring their own guns and ammo. The $600 would be split up among the group, so that 20 people would pay $30 each. That money in turn would be reinvested into the range. I'm definitely not making enough money to cover all my expenses any time soon, but at least this will help.

 

The benefit of doing it this way is that it is cheaper for the shooters. The downside is that it can be difficult to get 20 people to coordinate their schedules. The other issue is that while I can get 5 or 6 people shooting at once on the pistol and rifle range, when we go to the Zombie Course there can only be one shooter at a time. The Pistol and Rifle range will be closed because the entrance to the Zombie Course is halfway down the rifle range. Its just how the property is set up and I can't change that. However... the Zombie Range is expanding in a direction away from the rifle range. So when it gets to be 1,500 feet long, we can close off 600 feet of section near the rifle range and get both going at the same time.

 

If we manage to run two or three of these NJGF Shoots successfully and everyone is happy, you can start buying Hi-Cap mags and leaving them with me.

[Tactical Monkey 51]

Just to get a good mental picture here of what you are trying to accomplish, are you thinking about something like this? From reading your posts this is what my brain did:

 

Progress through the course, while using cover, and never have to shoot back facing the way you came (as that would create a 2-way range for the next guy in line). Targets are move-able so you can could change the quantity on one side or other, or move them to a different section entirely.

 

I put a lot of targets at the end because that is where the "horde" was, and figured numerous reloads would be entertaining :twisted:

[tsafa 2]

It is more of big backward soft "S". The curve naturally hinders the targets, so no need for barricades. The walls and ground are also uneven so that as you approach a pot hidden in that spot will not be visible until you get close.

 

When you get to the end, you unload and lock open before walking back. When you come back and put you gun on the table the next guy loads and goes. Under no circumstances does anyone face in the direction of the starting point with a loaded firearm. I will be standing behind the shooter too. I will follow each shooter up and down the course to insure safety.

 

Two things I just thought of. When you guys come, you will each bring two old pots to be used as targets. This will do cut down on the time of scoring and setting targets. It will be easier to recognize if you hit the targets because they will move. The movement will also be good, because the next time you go up the targets will be in a totally different position.

 

Another thing I just realized is that my NRA Insurance is for while giving instruction. That means I must be within vision of the each shooter when he is shooting (so I can give instruction if any is needed). What I can not do is let you guys shoot on your own, because that would not not be covered. I believe my insurance may extend to any Range Safety Officers I create through the NRA as a Chief Range Officer. I have to look into that, but that would be a 6 hour course I give with a written test submitted to the NRA. In short, I believe over time we could keep at least the pistol range running while people are on the Zombie course, but that is something I need to plan and prepare for.

[Wolfy 51]

tsfa you are a welcome member here. It is good for you and us that we get input into the course. Both sides will be satisfied with the end result. Please stop saying your sorry it is not finished. We know but are excited to see the final product and savor the input of building it.

[tsafa 2]

Thanks Wolfy.

 

Hay... no one answered my question in the other thread. Would people here still be willing to run the Zombie Course in the winter when it is 10 degrees outside and there is two feet of snow? Is Arctic Combat something people here are interested in? It gets very cold up there. Snow does not melt in the winter months, it just accumulates.

 

Does anyone have access to Steel Barrels and a pick up truck they can bring them? I figure in the winter we can throw some wood in the Barrels and create a few warm spots.

[KpdPipes 388]

Thanks Wolfy.

 

Hay... no one answered my question in the other thread. Would people here still be willing to run the Zombie Course in the winter when it is 10 degrees outside and there is two feet of snow? Is Arctic Combat something people here are interested in? It gets very cold up there. Snow does not melt in the winter months, it just accumulates.

 

Does anyone have access to Steel Barrels and a pick up truck they can bring them? I figure in the winter we can throw some wood in the Barrels and create a few warm spots.

 

I might be able to do something about the barrels, and i have a ram 1500 8'bed, so lugging them out there isnt a problem. As for operating in the cold...While i dont like it..Shitbags dont stop being shitbags just because it's cold out, and i can dress a LOT more effectivly to play in the Zombie Course than i can in Uniform sadly..

[EchoMirage 137]

i wouldnt mind a winter trip. but keep in mind, except for the few people who live in the very NW, this will be at least a 2+ hour trip for most of us. i doubt its going to be a weekly thing. maybe monthly, but that all depends on everyones schedule. i certainly dont want this to be a one time deal, but i hope there can be at least a semi-regular schedule with 10 or so people each time.

[bbk 188]

This is pretty exciting stuff-- and it really did take off in the time I was away doing things today.

 

I don't know how available I am these days with school and whatnot, but I'll definitely try and make the time to get up there to help out.

 

As for the cold-- definitely. It'll be a good [somewhat] extreme test of equipment, plus I prefer the cold over the hot any day.

[tsafa 2]

i certainly dont want this to be a one time deal, but i hope there can be at least a semi-regular schedule with 10 or so people each time.

 

Heck no... a shooting range needs shooters!

 

I am thinking we might set aside the last Sunday of each month for a NJGF shoot. If the turnout numbers start becoming low, perhaps we can team up with the people over at PAFOA. The goal should be to keep the number of people just above 20 in order to keep the cost to each individual down. If the number starts to exceed 40, then we plan two days because I don't think people will appreciate a supper cheap price if they don't get to do enough shooting do to waiting on line.

 

So what do you guys think about he first Sunday of each month? Lets get this going. We will need to make a thread the week before to see who wants to commit to participate in the NHGF shoot out.

[EchoMirage 137]

i doubt we'll ever get 40 people. theres never been more then 8 at a bullet hole meet, and thats centrally located and only $20.

 

one sunday a month is fine, weather depending. make sure it doesnt coincide with other club meets....the second sunday (or so) is a CR meet, and sometime there is a fort dix and shore shot gathering.

 

let us know if/when you want to have a work weekend or day during the week, in advance, and maybe some people can come up to help.

[fliks 20]

yah, it's difficult getting us together (like herding cats). I kinda started this whole hoopla, mostly because I was looking for a place in the Poconos to shoot when I visit there. Bill mentioned on the phone that he's building a zombie course, I figured it's something NJFG members would be interested in and shared the info...and it snowballed from there. now I kinda feel like an a** because I don't know when/how I could make it over there for a group outing. As much as I'd love to go, I've got obligations up the wazoo. I think even if we get a smaller group together, Bill could simply adjust the rates accordingly.

ALSO: Bill, have you tried contacting our "free" brethren on http://www.pafoa.org/ about this?

[tbtrout 141]

I am willing to bet you can get 20 people together for this easily.