Purchasing a Black Powder Rifle in PA

[FlyersFan 1]

Hey guys. I just got off the phone with the kind folks at Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop in Kempton, PA. I'm planning to make a trip up there to buy a flintlock, and wanted to make sure they had extra copies of the NJ Certificate of Eligibility on hand, or else I'd just bring a few copies of my own. But, I was informed over the phone that I didn't need to fill out the Certificate of Eligibility in order to purchase a Muzzleloading Rifle at their shop in PA. I had always thought that any long gun that is considered to be a firearm in New Jersey (BB Gun, Muzzleloader, etc.) had to be accompanied by a CoE, even if the purchase was made out of state. Can someone clarify this for me? I'm sure the people at Dixon's do a ton of business with Jersey residents, so I'm not questioning them, but am just making sure I understand things correctly. Thanks!

[junkmanted 54]

Hey guys. I just got off the phone with the kind folks at Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop in Kempton, PA. I'm planning to make a trip up there to buy a flintlock, and wanted to make sure they had extra copies of the NJ Certificate of Eligibility on hand, or else I'd just bring a few copies of my own. But, I was informed over the phone that I didn't need to fill out the Certificate of Eligibility in order to purchase a Muzzleloading Rifle at their shop in PA. I had always thought that any long gun that is considered to be a firearm in New Jersey (BB Gun, Muzzleloader, etc.) had to be accompanied by a CoE, even if the purchase was made out of state. Can someone clarify this for me? I'm sure the people at Dixon's do a ton of business with Jersey residents, so I'm not questioning them, but am just making sure I understand things correctly. Thanks!

 

 

from what I understand you can buy a Back Powder or a BB gun in PA and bring it home as long as you have a FID card in NJ.

You dont need to fill out anything in PA kinda the way real life in America should be

[Jon 264]

I believe blackpowder guns aren't considered firearms in America, therefore no CoE is required.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

If you want to make a copy for yourself, feel free. But think about it - even for modern longarms, why would a PA shop need to fill out a copy of the COE, when it doesn't go back to any NJ entity, it is simply to be maintained by the seller (usually filed with the 4473 Federal form)..

 

In NJ one copy goes to the buyer and one to the seller. In NJ, the seller could be audited by the NJSP. Since the NJSP have no jurisdiction in PA they cannot audit PA dealers, so why create more paperwork for themselves. Remember this is strictly a state requirement, not a federal one.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[FlyersFan 1]

Thanks for the replies guys. Yeah, you're right PizzaBob, it does kinda make sense when you put it that way. I had always gone by this list that PK90 provided:

 

2. Long gun purchases by

....A. NJ resident from

........(1) NJ dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID

........(2) NJ resident = face to face with a FPID, COE with Photo ID suggested

........(3) Out-of-state dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID

........(4) Out-of-state resident = must be transferred through

............a. NJ dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID or

............b. Out-of-state dealer = NICS check with a FPID, COE and Photo ID

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

Yes, however a black powder rifle is not a long gun in PA. Its a black powder rifle, nothing more than a misc. non gun item that so happens to make projectiles come out with lots 'o smoke

[PK90 3,573]

The only catch I see here is that all dealers are required to follow the laws in their state AND the buyer's state of residence. This is per Federal Law.

 

But, one can argue that since the BP is not a federally classified firearm, then no laws have to be followed other than the seller's state.

 

Also, no 4473 is required in NJ for BP firearms. Only a COE.

 

Maybe I should add a section for BP and BB firearms.

[KpdPipes 388]

The only catch I see here is that all dealers are required to follow the laws in their state AND the buyer's state of residence. This is per Federal Law.

 

But, one can argue that since the BP is not a federally classified firearm, then no laws have to be followed other than the seller's state.

 

Also, no 4473 is required in NJ for BP firearms. Only a COE.

 

Maybe I should add a section for BP and BB firearms.

is that new Paul?? Admittedly it's probably 15 years or more since i bought my last Coal Burner...but I recall the Bullet Hole having me fill out the 4473 jsut like for any other firearm at the time.

[PK90 3,573]

is that new Paul?? Admittedly it's probably 15 years or more since i bought my last Coal Burner...but I recall the Bullet Hole having me fill out the 4473 jsut like for any other firearm at the time.

I made the same mistake in the past. The 4473 is a Federal requirement for firearm transfers from dealers. The BP & BB are not Federal firearms.

 

FYI, I revised this thread. Please correct me if you see a mistake.

[FlyersFan 1]

Thanks guys, I appreciate all the replies. Our gun laws are so confusing! :icon_neutral:

 

Paul, thanks so much for clarifying, and thank you for posting (and updating) that handy list! I've printed it out and have given it to quite a few friends and family members who have asked me about issues such as this, because it's quite helpful and informative! I had figured since NJ considered it a firearm, I had to consider it a firearm too no matter where I purchased it. Thanks again!

[ianargent 7]

As far as I can tell, buying a BB gun or a black powder rifle in NJ, you have to do the CoE but not the 4473 (the BATFE doesn't care, but the SP do). Out of state, there are no laws making you follow your home state laws WRT Black Powder or BB guns, as they are not considered firearms federally. (There *is* such a law for firearms, so you ahve to do the CoE to buy a "real" firearm out of state).

[Substratocaster 0]

Hey guys!

 

http://www.nj.gov/njsp/info/pdf/firearms/njac-title13-ch54.pdf is really helpful in figuring out what is illegal and what isn't.

 

The parts that applies to this:

 

13:54-1.2 Definition:

"Antique firearm" means any firearm which is incapable of being fired or discharged, or which does not fire fixed ammunition regardless of date of manufacture, or was manufactured before 1898 for which cartridge ammunition is not commercially available, and is possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value.

 

What that translates to:

 

The state of NJ does not view black powder weapons as firearms to be regulated. I have several lawyers in the family, including one who's tried several cases involving gun owner rights and one directly involving a man with a collection of black powder rifles. His explanation, as well as I can remember it: "The thinking is simple: one, black powder is less powerful, which leads to less inadvertent damage; two, the longer reload time means a patient police officer can wait for you to fire and start to reload to enter safely; and three, it would involve making a lot of people who randomly have a gun as a historical piece, passed down through the family, suddenly criminals."

 

Basically, black powder weapons are not classified as guns according to NJ law.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Basically, black powder weapons are not classified as guns according to NJ law.

 

 

While IANAL, and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express, I have to disagree. Just for clarity's sake, you have quoted from the NJAC, not the statute - they differ slightly in content but not intent.

 

Here is the statute that defines a firearm - 2C:39-1 paragraph (f)

"Firearm" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

 

The highlighted portion pretty well defines the workings of a black powder firearm.

 

You, essentially quoted paragraph (a) of 2C;39-1 and hang your hat on the sentence, "...which does not fire fixed ammunition regardless of date of manufacture." Which on the surface is contradictory to paragraph (f). However, you have to include the entirety of paragraph (a) in order to arrive at the correct interpretation. Here is the entire paragraph (a) - I've highlighted the sentence that negates your reasoning:

"Antique firearm" means any rifle or shotgun and "antique cannon" means a destructive device defined in paragraph (3) of subsection c. of this section, if the rifle, shotgun or destructive device, as the case may be, is incapable of being fired or discharged, or which does not fire fixed ammunition, regardless of date of manufacture, or was manufactured before 1898 for which cartridge ammunition is not commercially available, and is possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value.

 

If the flintlock or cap & ball firearm you purchase is to be strictly a "wall hanger", possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value, then no COE or FPID would be required - it is an "antique firearm" by definition. If, however, you intend to actually use it, it now falls under the definition of a "firearm" with all regulations attached.

 

I think that you would be hard-pressed to find a NJ FFL that would sell you a BP firearm without an FPID and COE, regardless of what you claim your intent is for the firearm. OTOH, you probably could do so in PA. Not sure where that leaves you legally, but it's quite clear that if your BP firearm is to be used, it meets NJ's definition of a "firearm".

 

Splitting hairs, I know, but that's the way NJ is.

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

 

[halbautomatisch 60]

I made the same mistake in the past. The 4473 is a Federal requirement for firearm transfers from dealers. The BP & BB are not Federal firearms.

 

FYI, I revised this thread. Please correct me if you see a mistake.

Do you do NICS on them?

 

That last time I bought a muzzleloader in NJ, about 10 years ago, I bought it on a Sunday and was told the only thing that needed to be done was a COE and pay for it.

[PK90 3,573]

No.

 

4473 = NICS.

[JSF01 13]

and is possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value.

 

If the flintlock or cap & ball firearm you purchase is to be strictly a "wall hanger", possessed as a curiosity or ornament or for its historical significance or value, then no COE or FPID would be required - it is an "antique firearm" by definition. If, however, you intend to actually use it, it now falls under the definition of a "firearm" with all regulations attached.

 

Not that I mean to argue, as I realize that regardless of the fact, NJ is going to treat them as a firearms, but even if you intend to use it does not mean it’s not possessed as a curiosity, or its historical significance, or value. I think that if someone had the time and money, as well as being willing to risk it they could successfully argue it in court.