Man charged for possession of hollow points in his home

[rsa 1]

Just read this in the local weekly paper. "During a lawful search of Ray's residence a small quantity of cocaine was seized along with hollow point bullets which under New Jersey law are prohibited weapons". He was charged with one count of fourth degree Possession of Hollow Point Bullets along with other charges. How could that be? I thought hollow points are legal in your own home.

[Babaganoosh 192]

Prob connected it to the cocaine charge. Just my guess.

[bry@n 195]

Just read this in the local weekly paper. "During a lawful search of Ray's residence a small quantity of cocaine was seized along with hollow point bullets which under New Jersey law are prohibited weapons". He was charged with one count of fourth degree Possession of Hollow Point Bullets along with other charges. How could that be? I thought hollow points are legal in your own home.

 

has to be related to the cocaine charge.

[Maksim 1,504]

Hollow points are illegal, except for the reasons specified... it is a crime though, when used in conjunction or in the process of committing another felony, such as the drugs.

 

Ie... Hollow points are legal as long as what you are doing with them is legal... ie range use.

[BigHayden 77]

Yeah, the cocaine possession kind of disqualifies this guy as a poster child for 2A rights in NJ.

 

I wonder if he has a prior record, and if so, where is the gun that ammo goes to and why isn't there an unlawful possession of a weapon charge?

[PK90 3,570]

Hollowpoints are legal in the home IF one is not a prohibited person. A charge for something else is not an automatic qualifier for a hollowpoint charge. The suspect was probably a prohibited person.

[Maksim 1,504]

Hollowpoints are legal in the home IF one is not a prohibited person. A charge for something else is not an automatic qualifier for a hollowpoint charge. The suspect was probably a prohibited person.

 

What He said.

[Dan 177]

I bet they got them under possession of a weapon for unlawful purposes. Apparently hollow point bullets are defined as a weapon in and of themselves under NJ statutes.

 

2C:39-3 Prohibited weapons and devices

f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets.

 

2C:39-4.1. Weapons; controlled dangerous substances and other offenses, penalties.

 

b.Any person who has in his possession any weapon, except a firearm, with a purpose to use such weapon unlawfully against the person or property of another, while in the course of committing, attempting to commit, or conspiring to commit a violation of N.J.S.2C:35-3, N.J.S.2C:35-4, N.J.S.2C:35-5, section 3 or 5 of P.L.1997, c.194 (C.2C:35-5.2 or 2C:35-5.3), N.J.S.2C:35-6, section 1 of P.L.1987, c.101 (C.2C:35-7), section 1 of P.L.1997,c.327 (C.2C:35-7.1), N.J.S.2C:35-11 or N.J.S.2C:16-1 is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

 

c.Any person who has in his possession any weapon, except a firearm, under circumstances not manifestly appropriate for such lawful uses as the weapon may have, while in the course of committing, attempting to commit, or conspiring to commit a violation of N.J.S.2C:35-3, N.J.S.2C:35-4, N.J.S.2C:35-5, section 3 or section 5 of P.L. 1997, c.194 (C.2C:35-5.2 or 2C:35-5.3), N.J.S.2C:35-6, section 1 of P.L.1987, c.101 (C.2C:35-7), section 1 of P.L.1997,c.327(C.2C:35-7.1), N.J.S.2C:35-11 or N.J.S.2C:16-1 is guilty of a crime of the second degree.

 

If he was a prior convicted felon, he could also be deemed a person prohibited from possessing weapons under 2C:39-7 as well.

[karcirate 1]

Just read this in the local weekly paper. "During a lawful search of Ray's residence a small quantity of cocaine was seized along with hollow point bullets which under New Jersey law are prohibited weapons". He was charged with one count of fourth degree Possession of Hollow Point Bullets along with other charges. How could that be? I thought hollow points are legal in your own home.

 

Ray Ray? What you doing with toot?

[rsa 1]

Well, there is no mention of any prior convictions. This guy is/was a doctor. Allegedly, on three occasions sold prescriptions for Oxycodone to an undercover officer for somewhat over $1,000. Now, I've heard of doctors getting hooked on pain medications but it is unusual to see one actually peddling the meds. I guess he had school loans to pay off. Go figure.

 

Anyway, there were no other gun charges. Just charges for Conspiracy to Distribute a Controlled Dangerous Substance, Falsification of Records Relating to Medical Care, Possession of the cocaine, and the hollow points. This was an indictment. The arrest was from last May. What is disturbing is that the reporter made a blanket statement that "hollow point bullets, under New Jersey law are prohibited weapons." This statement is misleading. They are prohibited with exceptions, which happen to be storage in your home or property. It's bad enough that many law enforcement officers don't know the law, we don't need the press spewing out more misinformation. There have been numerous false arrests in NJ because of hollow point ammo that have resulted in successful lawsuits.

[LorenzoS 100]

I assume you mean this press release from the Monmouth County Prosecutor's office which includes "During a lawful search of Ray’s residence a small quantity of cocaine was seized along with hollow point bullets which under New Jersey law are prohibited weapons."

http://prosecutor.co.monmouth.nj.us/press/2011/020711.pdf

 

So the inaccuracy came directly from the prosecutor not the papers which took the press release verbatim. They do not mention an actual charge for having the hollowpoints, just that he happens to have them.

 

Unless he is already a prohibited person or he used the hollowpoints somehow in the commission of his other crimes, I think this is just fluff in the press release to show they caught a very dangerous bad man.

[rsa 1]

No, it does mention the charge, "one count of fourth degree Possession of

Hollow Point Bullets. " I guess a Chimp could work for the papers if all they do is repeat what's fed to them. Tough job.

[Dan 177]

It will be nearly impossible for them to stick him with unlawful possession of hollow points if he has no priors and is not prohibited from owning. They are in his own house, and he didn't use them during the commission of the crime.

 

The prosecutor will probably use it as a bargaining chip in a plea, hoping the guy's lawyer is an idiot... "We'll throw out the possession of hollow points if you confess to xyz"

[halbautomatisch 60]

It will be nearly impossible for them to stick him with unlawful possession of hollow points if he has no priors and is not prohibited from owning. They are in his own house, and he didn't use them during the commission of the crime.

 

The prosecutor will probably use it as a bargaining chip in a plea, hoping the guy's lawyer is an idiot... "We'll throw out the possession of hollow points if you confess to xyz"

It's called "stacking" - throw every conceivable charge at him and negotiate down from there. Like you said, hopefully his lawyer is not an idiot and will tell them the charge is not even relevant.

[BigHayden 77]

It will be nearly impossible for them to stick him with unlawful possession of hollow points if he has no priors and is not prohibited from owning. They are in his own house, and he didn't use them during the commission of the crime.

 

The prosecutor will probably use it as a bargaining chip in a plea, hoping the guy's lawyer is an idiot... "We'll throw out the possession of hollow points if you confess to xyz"

 

Not to split hairs with you, but the charge is possession of hollow points during the commission of a crime and not use of hollow points during the commission of a crime. Possession of cocaine is a crime, so that makes it illegal for him to possess hollow points at the same time. This is exactly the same thing that Vlad talks about with Brian Aitken. He was committing a crime by possessing "high capacity" magazines, thereby making his possession of hollow points illegal.

 

Personally I think the whole hollow point law is bull-plop anyway and too many people in NJ are ignorant when it comes to firearms issues, so they believe the media when they print claims that they are vest-busting, cop-killing, baby-bbq'ing, nun-raping, tax-raising, teacher-hating, Chris-Christie-loving, nuclear-powered, armor-piercing, plane-hijacking, terrorism-supporting, weapons of mass destruction that no civilian should even look at, let alone own, but the cops should all have them because they need them to protect us from bad guys.

[PK90 3,570]

... but the charge is possession of hollow points during the commission of a crime and not use of hollow points during the commission of a crime. Possession of cocaine is a crime, so that makes it illegal for him to possess hollow points at the same time. This is exactly the same thing that Vlad talks about with Brian Aitken. He was committing a crime by possessing "high capacity" magazines, thereby making his possession of hollow points illegal.

 

(2) a. Nothing in subsection f. (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land, ...

 

No where in the law does it say what you are saying. The hollowpoints were at his home where it is exempted. If he was standing on the sidewalk in front of his house with a hollowpoint bullet in his pocket, then yes, he is in possession of it outside of the exemption.

[tony357 386]

The other crime qualifies for the charge..

 

been told this before by the sg major, do not commit a crime while transporting to the range which he stated for example do not get a ticket for failure to stop at a stop sighn or you could be charged !!!

This is considered commiting a crime in which you posses hp bullets..

[Dan 177]

Not to split hairs with you, but the charge is possession of hollow points during the commission of a crime and not use of hollow points during the commission of a crime. Possession of cocaine is a crime, so that makes it illegal for him to possess hollow points at the same time. This is exactly the same thing that Vlad talks about with Brian Aitken. He was committing a crime by possessing "high capacity" magazines, thereby making his possession of hollow points illegal.

 

Personally I think the whole hollow point law is bull-plop anyway and too many people in NJ are ignorant when it comes to firearms issues, so they believe the media when they print claims that they are vest-busting, cop-killing, baby-bbq'ing, nun-raping, tax-raising, teacher-hating, Chris-Christie-loving, nuclear-powered, armor-piercing, plane-hijacking, terrorism-supporting, weapons of mass destruction that no civilian should even look at, let alone own, but the cops should all have them because they need them to protect us from bad guys.

 

Sorry, I don't agree here. The prosecutor would have to prove that he was possessing the hollow points "under circumstances not manifestly appropriate" while committing, during the course of, or conspiracy to commit the crimes. He was not a prohibited person from owning then, and was clearly under exemptions for possession. Thats not to stop the prosecutor from pushing it to court, and being we live in NJ, the jury may in fact be convinced that he was some kind of crazed lunatic drug dealer, looking to use terrorist/cop killer bullets to kill people.

 

This is my point with many of the weapons laws in our state, it is purley up to the police/prosecutor on whether or not they want to try to put you in jail. The wording of so many of our laws and rule by exemptions absolutely puts people on the defense to prove their innocence instead of the other way around.

 

 

The other crime qualifies for the charge..

 

been told this before by the sg major, do not commit a crime while transporting to the range which he stated for example do not get a ticket for failure to stop at a stop sighn or you could be charged !!!

This is considered commiting a crime in which you posses hp bullets..

 

There's a clear listing of the crime statute numbers in which the "possession of a weapon during a crime" can be used. From quickly looking at them they all seem to come from the 2C criminal listing, all 1-4 degree crimes. Although I haven't looked them all up, I highly doubt minor motor vehicle infractions count (like blowing a stop sign), not counting vehicular homicide and such other serious things.

 

 

 

I'm not saying this guy wasn't bad , and he deserves to be in jail on the drug charges. I'm all for that and I'm not defending him in any way on that stuff. Its just that these are the cases that sets precedence that could later be used against law-abiding people on technical violations.

[Babaganoosh 192]

The other crime qualifies for the charge..

 

been told this before by the sg major, do not commit a crime while transporting to the range which he stated for example do not get a ticket for failure to stop at a stop sighn or you could be charged !!!

This is considered commiting a crime in which you posses hp bullets..

 

I call BS on this one. Failure to yield at a stop sign isn't a felony

[KpdPipes 388]

Well, there is no mention of any prior convictions. This guy is/was a doctor. Allegedly, on three occasions sold prescriptions for Oxycodone to an undercover officer for somewhat over $1,000. Now, I've heard of doctors getting hooked on pain medications but it is unusual to see one actually peddling the meds. I guess he had school loans to pay off. Go figure.

 

Anyway, there were no other gun charges. Just charges for Conspiracy to Distribute a Controlled Dangerous Substance, Falsification of Records Relating to Medical Care, Possession of the cocaine, and the hollow points. This was an indictment. The arrest was from last May. What is disturbing is that the reporter made a blanket statement that "hollow point bullets, under New Jersey law are prohibited weapons." This statement is misleading. They are prohibited with exceptions, which happen to be storage in your home or property. It's bad enough that many law enforcement officers don't know the law, we don't need the press spewing out more misinformation. There have been numerous false arrests in NJ because of hollow point ammo that have resulted in successful lawsuits.

Nonsense..it's just unusual to see one getting CAUGHT peddling.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Nonsense..it's just unusual to see one getting CAUGHT peddling.

 

 

I agree.. I think that scripts are the modern drug plague.. not only is there an entire underground black market.. but that doesn't even count the BS scripts that are handed out hand over fist to people who don't really need them..

 

in working with people for ten plus years I can not count the times that I have seen a pill bottle rattling around when someone reaches into their pocketbook to retrieve payment.. and I can not even describe the pharmaceutical fog that many of my customers appear to be operating in.. I would be very curious to see a REAL deep investigation into scripts and some data on exactly what negative impact they are having on our society..

 

"adults" are all for drug prohibition because they are so "legally" drugged up that they don't even need street drugs anymore.. take one of my good friends.. bad bad choices as a young man.. got hooked on heroin.. couldn't afford his habit anymore so turned himself into a clinic for help.. well he has been heroin free for years now.. and he has stayed out of jail.. doesn't change the fact that 9 times out of 10 he is in a complete methadone induced fog... legally passing the days by high as a kite.. that is no solution IMO...

 

oh you are on heroin? that's no good.. let us help you.. here get high on this.. it's legal! and we can give you a script!

 

what a bunch of bs..

[vladtepes 1,060]

Not to split hairs with you, but the charge is possession of hollow points during the commission of a crime and not use of hollow points during the commission of a crime. Possession of cocaine is a crime, so that makes it illegal for him to possess hollow points at the same time. This is exactly the same thing that Vlad talks about with Brian Aitken. He was committing a crime by possessing "high capacity" magazines, thereby making his possession of hollow points illegal.

 

I agree and disagree.. I think it is really a touchy situation.. because you could look at it two ways and net two totally different stances...

 

1) this guy is a drug dealer.. and is using firearms to protect his illegal drug trade thus any weapons offenses present coincide with being a drug dealer and should be considered for prosecution..

 

2) this guy is a drug dealer.. but was not a violent criminal.. he did not own illegal guns.. and the guns and ammunition he had were simply personal property that he had in his home... thus not really needed to be taken into account...

 

some people want to say "use of hollowpoints" in the commission of a crime.. like holding someone up.. shooting them.. etc.. and for others the wording is likely more flexible.. what is certain is that it is easy enough to see both sides..

 

what WILL however probably happen is exactly what was described.. pile on the charges.. and plea them out in court..

[Babaganoosh 192]

I agree.. I think that scripts are the modern drug plague.. not only is there an entire underground black market.. but that doesn't even count the BS scripts that are handed out hand over fist to people who don't really need them..

 

in working with people for ten plus years I can not count the times that I have seen a pill bottle rattling around when someone reaches into their pocketbook to retrieve payment.. and I can not even describe the pharmaceutical fog that many of my customers appear to be operating in.. I would be very curious to see a REAL deep investigation into scripts and some data on exactly what negative impact they are having on our society..

 

"adults" are all for drug prohibition because they are so "legally" drugged up that they don't even need street drugs anymore.. take one of my good friends.. bad bad choices as a young man.. got hooked on heroin.. couldn't afford his habit anymore so turned himself into a clinic for help.. well he has been heroin free for years now.. and he has stayed out of jail.. doesn't change the fact that 9 times out of 10 he is in a complete methadone induced fog... legally passing the days by high as a kite.. that is no solution IMO...

 

oh you are on heroin? that's no good.. let us help you.. here get high on this.. it's legal! and we can give you a script!

 

what a bunch of bs..

 

2 things

 

When I date a girl I always take a peek in her medicine cabinet on the first few dates. If I find anti depressants or anti anxiety medications I pretty much peace that chick out immediatly. Dealing with crazy chicks is not fun. However they do tend to be more fun in the bedroom. :icon_lol: :icon_lol: I also google anything else I don't know what its for. Can do it right from my phone these days. Anything suspect and I don't even enter any type of relationship with her. Not even a friend. I have dealt with too many chicks who have been either bat **** crazy or go bat **** crazy when they don't take their meds. I don't need to deal with someone with insane mood swings

 

When I worked at Nordtrom approx 8 years ago I worked with 95% women. I would say that over 60% of them always had pill bottles with them. These chicks pop xanax just cuz they are having a rough day or a fight with their BF's. If one of their friends is having a bad day they are like.."here hun take this" they pass them around like candy. Disgusting.

[BigHayden 77]

I agree and disagree.. I think it is really a touchy situation.. because you could look at it two ways and net two totally different stances...

 

1) this guy is a drug dealer.. and is using firearms to protect his illegal drug trade thus any weapons offenses present coincide with being a drug dealer and should be considered for prosecution..

 

2) this guy is a drug dealer.. but was not a violent criminal.. he did not own illegal guns.. and the guns and ammunition he had were simply personal property that he had in his home... thus not really needed to be taken into account...

 

some people want to say "use of hollowpoints" in the commission of a crime.. like holding someone up.. shooting them.. etc.. and for others the wording is likely more flexible.. what is certain is that it is easy enough to see both sides..

 

what WILL however probably happen is exactly what was described.. pile on the charges.. and plea them out in court..

 

 

So now I'm totally confused... Brian Aitken wasn't a violent criminal, but because he had high-caps his charge of hollow points should stick? Is that the position you're taking? Because both "crimes" are possession of something that the government bans; not "real" crimes.

 

If that's not the position you're taking, that's fine, but I'm really trying to understand why you think the Aitken charge is legit and this one might not be...

[LorenzoS 100]

Anticipating what the prosecutor's position might be is not the same as agreeing with it.

[e80hydro 120]

2 things

 

When I date a girl I always take a peek in her medicine cabinet on the first few dates. If I find anti depressants or anti anxiety medications I pretty much peace that chick out immediatly. Dealing with crazy chicks is not fun. However they do tend to be more fun in the bedroom. :icon_lol: :icon_lol: I also google anything else I don't know what its for. Can do it right from my phone these days. Anything suspect and I don't even enter any type of relationship with her. Not even a friend. I have dealt with too many chicks who have been either bat **** crazy or go bat **** crazy when they don't take their meds. I don't need to deal with someone with insane mood swings

 

When I worked at Nordtrom approx 8 years ago I worked with 95% women. I would say that over 60% of them always had pill bottles with them. These chicks pop xanax just cuz they are having a rough day or a fight with their BF's. If one of their friends is having a bad day they are like.."here hun take this" they pass them around like candy. Disgusting.

 

Most of them you don't even need to look in their medicine cabinet to see how F'ed up they are. Just having a conversation will usually do it.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Most of them you don't even need to look in their medicine cabinet to see how F'ed up they are. Just having a conversation will usually do it.

+1000 Chicks will have all sorts of medicine at hand for god knows what. And trust me sometimes it's better they have it then not. You need to consider the fact that women are not as stable as men are, its just built in hormones. I would rather my chick take something for bad PMS then have to deal with it. It's a different story when it's a daily thing. I've seen chicks walk around with pharmacies in there purses, beware!

[Babaganoosh 192]

+1000 Chicks will have all sorts of medicine at hand for god knows what. And trust me sometimes it's better they have it then not. You need to consider the fact that women are not as stable as men are, its just built in hormones. I would rather my chick take something for bad PMS then have to deal with it. It's a different story when it's a daily thing. I've seen chicks walk around with pharmacies in there purses, beware!

 

 

No thanks, there are a few women out there who don't require meds to live a normal non moody life. I'd rather be with them than with one who needs meds to regulate themselves.