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#31 BigHayden

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  • LocationWest Deptford
  • Home Range:USANA

Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:11 AM

If a bb pistol is considered a handgun in NJ then I really don't think you can buy one in Pa and ship it or bring it into NJ to your residence. You cannot buy a 9mm pistol in PA and just ship it or bring it to NJ. So why would a bb pistol be any different?


You can't buy a 9mm pistol in PA and just ship it to your house in NJ because federal law prohibits purchasing a handgun in another state without transferring through an FFL in your state, period. A BB pistol is different because it's not a firearm, period.

Here's another example of perfectly legal activity. I can purchase 30 round AR magazines in PA legally, as a NJ resident. If I modify them to hold 15 rounds before I enter the state, they are legal. Agreed? If your logic held, it would be illegal for me to purchase the magazines in PA because it's illegal to possess them in NJ.

If you lived in PA, bought the bb pistol there, then moved to NJ and brought it with you I think that would be ok.


How is your example different? The only difference is in your example, the moving exception would kick in and allow you to personally transport it in your car to your home in NJ. In my example, traveling with the BB gun could be illegal (most likely would be, but you could make a case that you're transporting it from the store to your home, so maybe you could argue that), but shipping it would not be.

I'll echo what PK90 said, what laws are broken by purchasing a BB gun in PA and shipping it to yourself in NJ?
Laws do not prevent a single crime; they only define them.
-Paraphrased from John Longenecker

#32 Dan

Dan
  • LocationMatawan, NJ
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 12 April 2011 - 10:03 AM

,
So buy it at Walmart.


How is the posession illegal? One does not need a permit to OWN or TRANSPORT the BB pistol.


I said "illegal" posession, i.e. carrying without a carry permit, transporting outside of exemptions. Just proving the point that NJ considers bb/pellet pistols as firearm handguns... and all rules apply in their eyes.

Looking at this further..
NJ cannot force other states to apply their laws, only federal laws can do things like this.. point taken.

I suppose purchasing of a bb/pellet pistol in PA for instance isn't breaking any laws as both PA and the Feds don't consider it a firearm. Personally transporting it into NJ directly to your home is covered under exemptions of transporting a firearm handgun in NJ, so I can't see how this activity would be illegal. Now mailing it should technically be OK also, but opens the door for NJ to make the arrest, then the burden of proving yourself innocent is on you by proving it was you who mailed it to your own home address. Seems safer to personally drive it home.

#33 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:33 PM

In PA there is nothing preventing you from buying fireworks...

In NJ there are laws against even having fireworks...

therefore you can not go to PA and buy fireworks and legally bring them back to NJ because you can not legally possess them here...


In PA a bb handgun is NOT a firearm, and therefore there are no laws stopping you from buying it..

In NJ a BB handgun is considered a handgun.. therefore while in NJ you can not buy a BB gun without following the law...


If you are IN NJ you are bound by NJ laws.. the reason you can not just buy a handgun in PA and bring it back to NJ is because of laws governing the sale of handguns... NJ does not say you can not OWN a BB gun.. they just say that to buy one you have to follow the same policies as firearms... well with that said the jurisdiction of NJ ends at the state line.. so break down the entire transaction...

You are a noncriminal adult..

You are at walmart in PA can you buy a bb pistol? YES PA law does not restrict the sale..
You now own a BB pistol.. can you bring it into NJ? I think so.. there is no mandatory handgun registration.. so you have a handgun (bb gun) that you legally purchased in PA following all laws and guidelines.. the ONLY way you would not be able to have it in NJ is if there were specific laws stating that you can not POSSESS a bb gun in NJ.. the reason it is different than actual firearms is because there are federal laws pertaining to firearms..

For anyone who says otherwise please point out the exact law you broke?

illegal purchase? NO PA allows it..
illegal possession? NO there are no NJ laws disallowing an adult to own a bb gun..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

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#34 DevsAdvocate

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  • LocationMorristown, NJ
  • Home Range:Ontelaunee Rod and Gun Club and RTSP

Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:37 PM

Ummm, guys? You do know you can goto a DICKS right now and buy a BB handgun without a permit. Or are we discussing some other type of BB gun or pellet gun?

#35 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:38 PM

Ummm, guys? You do know you can goto a DICKS right now and buy a BB handgun without a permit. Or are we discussing some other type of BB gun or pellet gun?


IN NJ?

a BB gun.. or a plastic airsoft kind of thing?

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

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BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#36 DevsAdvocate

DevsAdvocate
  • LocationMorristown, NJ
  • Home Range:Ontelaunee Rod and Gun Club and RTSP

Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:39 PM

IN NJ?

a BB gun.. or a plastic airsoft kind of thing?


Is there really a difference?

#37 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:41 PM

Is there really a difference?



in the eyes of the law I believe there is a pretty substantial difference.. what that difference is I am unsure of..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#38 GRIZ

GRIZ

Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:28 PM

in the eyes of the law I believe there is a pretty substantial difference.. what that difference is I am unsure of..

from Title 13:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic
rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected
any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by
means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or
explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of
an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is
a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or
is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.


It would seem that the only reason airsoft guns are not firearms in NJ is they lack "sufficient force to injure a person".

#39 Melgamatic

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  • Home Range:MCR&PC and GunForHire

Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:31 PM

I am following this debate with deep interest. I have a friend who has been thinking about buying a black powder handgun at Cabela's in PA to bring back to his or her home in NJ.

Does the logic follow there, too?

I know that Cabela's will sell a NJ resident a black powder firearm, because they don't care where you are from...

Benefactor NRA Life Member | NJ2AS | ANJRPC | MCRPC


#40 DevsAdvocate

DevsAdvocate
  • LocationMorristown, NJ
  • Home Range:Ontelaunee Rod and Gun Club and RTSP

Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:33 PM

in the eyes of the law I believe there is a pretty substantial difference.. what that difference is I am unsure of..

from Title 13:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic
rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected
any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by
means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or
explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of
an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is
a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or
is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.


It would seem that the only reason airsoft guns are not firearms in NJ is they lack "sufficient force to injure a person".


All it takes is one Ralphie shooting their eye out and that'll change.

#41 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:34 PM

in the eyes of the law I believe there is a pretty substantial difference.. what that difference is I am unsure of..

from Title 13:

"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic
rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected
any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by
means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or
explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of
an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is
a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or
is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch
in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.


It would seem that the only reason airsoft guns are not firearms in NJ is they lack "sufficient force to injure a person".



makes sense to me..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#42 Dan

Dan
  • LocationMatawan, NJ
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 12 April 2011 - 03:10 PM

Just remember when anyone brings the bb/pellet pistol or rifle back into NJ, all NJ firearms laws apply with the transportation rules and exemption BS we live under. For instance, you purchase the BB pistol in PA, and bring it to NJ. You better be going home , to a place of repair, or a shooting range unloaded in a fastened container.



#43 Rifleman1

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    Looking for Fun in All the Wrong Places

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 03:14 PM

How rediculous is this whole thread? We should not even have to have this discussion. Who are the morons that passed the legislation that defined BB guns as firearms? You gotta be f-ing kidding me!

I have a BB gun pistol that was given to me by my father 35 years ago. Now, after reading on this forum, I find that I am illegaly in possession of a firearm. So, the law states that I must get a NJFID card and a P2P for this BB gun.

Well, I actually have applied for both, but there is no way in hell I am going to waste a P2P that I may wait 3 months (or longer) to get to "transfer" ownership of that BB gun to me. I don't use it, haven't touched it in 20 years. I'll just have to hide it so I don't get caught with it. This state is run so bass-ackwards it simply amazes me to no end.

Sorry, rant-over.

Do yourself a favor, don't try to skirt the law, it won't be worth it.


.

"We must be the great arsenal of democracy. For us this is an emergency as serious as war itself. We must apply ourselves to our task with the same resolution, the same sense of urgency, the same spirit of patriotism and sacrifice as we would show were we at war." -- FDR December 29, 1940
 
"Are we at last brought to such an humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms under our own possession and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
-- Patrick Henry [3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836]


#44 NorthernYankee

NorthernYankee
  • LocationMullica Hill, NJ
  • Home Range:Quinton Sportsmans Club

Posted 12 April 2011 - 03:41 PM

I'm in the same boat with the BB pistol that hasn't been used in XX years and will be giving it to a relative who is a FL resident. I cannot see using a PP for it.



If its already in your possession then no need to waste a PP. The PP is only to buy it not to own it, hypothetically if I wanted a BB gun I would have picked it up in MD on my way home from a camping trip. Then there is no need for a PP and I am just transporting my property home with me.

#45 M4BGRINGO

M4BGRINGO
  • LocationSouth River
  • Home Range:OBRPC, Citizens Rifle & Pistol, Mallard

Posted 12 April 2011 - 07:40 PM

Hmmm... I guess the potato guns we used to make are also illegal here. :)

#46 Downr@nge

Downr@nge
  • LocationThe Planet Mercury

Posted 12 April 2011 - 07:42 PM

Is there really a difference?


Yes! Regular BB guns are significantly more powerful than Airsoft guns in most cases. Most BB Guns shoot BB's at over 900 fps. Most Airsoft guns are in the 400 fps range and airsoft projectiles are plastic.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson

#47 GRIZ

GRIZ

Posted 12 April 2011 - 08:07 PM

Hmmm... I guess the potato guns we used to make are also illegal here.

IIRC there were some people arrested for building and shooting potato guns back in the 80s. I don't know how far the prosecution went but something to keep in mind.

#48 halbautomatisch

halbautomatisch
  • LocationNorth Jersey
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge and PA

Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:16 PM

]

It would seem that the only reason airsoft guns are not firearms in NJ is they lack "sufficient force to injure a person".

This is exactly the reason air soft and paint ball guns are not considered firearms in NJ. When paint ball guns first became popular about 20 years ago, NJ tied to claim they were firearms under NJ law, the paint ball gun makers sued and won since these devices lacked sufficient force to injure.

#49 halbautomatisch

halbautomatisch
  • LocationNorth Jersey
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge and PA

Posted 12 April 2011 - 09:21 PM

I am following this debate with deep interest. I have a friend who has been thinking about buying a black powder handgun at Cabela's in PA to bring back to his or her home in NJ.

Does the logic follow there, too?

I know that Cabela's will sell a NJ resident a black powder firearm, because they don't care where you are from...

Yes it would, antiques, black powder and air guns all in the boat.

#50 John Boy

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  • Location39.9686° N, 74.0717° W
  • Home Range:Central Jersey Rifle & Pistol

Posted 19 November 2011 - 03:31 PM

View PostMelgamatic, on 12 April 2011 - 01:31 PM, said:
I am following this debate with deep interest. I have a friend who has been thinking about buying a black powder handgun at Cabela's in PA to bring back to his or her home in NJ.

Does the logic follow there, too?

I know that Cabela's will sell a NJ resident a black powder firearm, because they don't care where you are from...

Yes it would, antiques, black powder and air guns all in the boat.

Gentlemen, though interesting discussion, except for antiques... permit, transportation and ownership for BB handguns & C&B blackpowder revolvers in New Jersey is based on conjecture. A definitive legal opinion should be obtained from Evan Nappen and also brought to the attention of The New Jersey Second Amendment Society

Conjecture ... the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.


Regards
John

#51 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 19 November 2011 - 06:38 PM

NJ does not have mandatory gun registration
NJ does not have athourity in PA
In pa a black powder pistol is ok to sell to a NJ resident?
Then how would that be illegal....

The purchase is in PA..... No pistol permit needed
Gun registration is voluntary...
Transportation allows to and from place of purchase.... Coming home from gun shop in pa would that not be place of purchase?

What would they charge you with?

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#52 Low Exposure

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  • Home Range:Around the neighborhood

Posted 19 November 2011 - 07:37 PM

Just saw this thread. I'll have to throw this one in the same category as the last few 'legal' threads. Something that only someone entirely paranoid of NJ laws might care about, something someone intending on doing something unrelated, but illegal, while in the possession of it might care about, but nothing anybody else cares about. The whole idea that it is illegal to buy a BB gun in PA as a NJ resident is pretty ridiculous.

I really think that people who claim things like this, traveling out of state with a handgun, not being allowed to travel with loaded magazines, etc, are illegal, either haven't read the applicable laws, or are incapable of comprehending things. If not that then they have been brainwashed by anti-gun types.

#53 halbautomatisch

halbautomatisch
  • LocationNorth Jersey
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge and PA

Posted 19 November 2011 - 10:33 PM

Gentlemen, though interesting discussion, except for antiques... permit, transportation and ownership for BB handguns & C&B blackpowder revolvers in New Jersey is based on conjecture. A definitive legal opinion should be obtained from Evan Nappen and also brought to the attention of The New Jersey Second Amendment Society

According to Nappen's book, it is his opinion that it is legal to bring back into NJ legally purchased air, BP and antique guns without doing anything regarding permits or COE's.

#54 crackaloon

crackaloon
  • LocationLacey Twp

Posted 19 November 2011 - 10:46 PM

Some BB guns have magazines that hold more than 15 bbs
~Greg~
Honda VTX1300

#55 John Boy

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  • Location39.9686° N, 74.0717° W
  • Home Range:Central Jersey Rifle & Pistol

Posted 20 November 2011 - 10:44 PM

halbautomatisch, I have his original NAPPEN ON NEW JERSEY GUN LAW. Didn't see any reference to what is being discussed. Presume it is in his II or III version?
Regards
John

#56 autoxnyc

autoxnyc
  • LocationChatham, NJ
  • Home Range:EFGA

Posted 21 November 2011 - 12:29 AM

I was told to always keep a copy of the pink permit to purchase with me on my way to the range. Is this necessary?

#57 Low Exposure

Low Exposure
  • Home Range:Around the neighborhood

Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:22 AM

I was told to always keep a copy of the pink permit to purchase with me on my way to the range. Is this necessary?


No.

#58 tommy3rd

tommy3rd
  • LocationPassaic County
  • Home Range:GFH / Cherry Ridge

Posted 21 November 2011 - 07:35 AM

According to Nappen's book, it is his opinion that it is legal to bring back into NJ legally purchased air, BP and antique guns without doing anything regarding permits or COE's.

i know he's supposed to be THE premier lawyer when it comes to gun laws in New Jersey, but his opinion won't really count in court unless you get him to defend you. Even then, do we know how good he really is?When someone gets arrested on gun charges, you can't just pull out the book and say "see, according to this book it is legal."

#59 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 21 November 2011 - 10:25 AM

While I appreciate nappens views and books I agree that his opinion is just that... An opinion... Most of the laws in NJ are pretty clear..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#60 halbautomatisch

halbautomatisch
  • LocationNorth Jersey
  • Home Range:Cherry Ridge and PA

Posted 21 November 2011 - 09:34 PM

i know he's supposed to be THE premier lawyer when it comes to gun laws in New Jersey, but his opinion won't really count in court unless you get him to defend you. Even then, do we know how good he really is?When someone gets arrested on gun charges, you can't just pull out the book and say "see, according to this book it is legal."

I wasn't implying that Nappen is the end all when it comes to NJ gun laws, I was merely responding to John Boy's suggestion to get Nappen's opinion.




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