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Evil feature list, NJ AWB


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#1 Dan

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 07:51 PM

Had a good discussion with someone today, got me thinking... here it is:

First off, the NJ statutes have the full "assault weapon" list of specifically named model guns that are banned, along with the "substantially identical" clause. It also has some other rules, such as fixed magazine limits etc. The "evil feature list" is NOT in the NJ Statutes. See here: NJ Statute defining an AW

The case of NJ v Robert D. Merrill changed things back in 1996, a situation in which the court deemed the "substantially identical" clause as unconstitutional around its vagueness, and Robert was free of charges against him which were being found in possession of a MAK90 and a <15 round magazine. You can read more about it here: Case .

NJ decided not to appeal. Instead the AG at the time wrote a letter to all county prosecutors and LE chiefs defining what "substantially identical" means, and to enforce it as such. This gave us the evil feature list. The letter can be found here. The original AWB remained in the statutes.

So in essence, the NJ Statue on "substantially identical" still stands on the books as law. The State can choose to ignore or rescind the old 1996 AG letter at any time, and start causing hell. Gun dealers know this, and this is the big stick the State (AG) holds in her hand. At any time she can demand that a gun dealer stop selling a particular firearm that she feels is "substantially identical", ignoring the 1996 AG guideline letter. At that point it becomes a game of chicken, either the dealer obeys, or faces a criminal lawsuit that will either make him or her broke, in jail, or both. It could also backfire, and bring down the full weight of SAF/ANJRPC/NRA, etc down on NJ , ending in a complete recall of NJ's AWB statutes. The AG knows this and hasn't tried anything ... yet. Nor is there a dealer that I know of that would want to be the trailblazer on that one.

Theoretically anyone (excluding dealers and others under exceptions) with a EBR type SA gun in NJ can be another Robert Merrill. All that person would have is the 1996 AG letter stating "guidelines" and past precidence with the Merrill case as a defense. IMO it is a good one, but still, could be a life changing event for whoever this happens to.
This has me reaching for my tinfoil hat. As in no longer posting pics and discussing any shall we say "cool looking" SA guns in such a way that indicates that I own one.

It also has implications regarding our dealers in the state. If people start calling in to the NJSP and AG's office asking if so and so's "AK" is legal in NJ, and start dropping names of dealers selling them , etc things can go badly. We all know of the recent example of which I will not go into details. Thus, I would also keep our dealer's in mind when responding to threads about where I got a particular kind of rifle. Fly low and slow to avoid unwanted attention.

I performed the best research I could on this topic, citing links to where I got it. If I'm wrong or missing something, please let me know.

Edit : Mods, can you move this to the NJ Gun Laws board, I should have posted it there. thanks!

#2 vjf915

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 08:45 PM

At any time she can demand that a gun dealer stop selling a particular firearm that she feels is "substantially identical", ignoring the 1996 AG guideline letter.

First off, great read!! The quote above, that is exactly what happened within the past year, which as you said, I will not go into details. It's a scary thought......but I do have to say, unfortunately to get anywhere, we do need that brave soul to test the system. I don't see any major changes being made within this century without something like that happening.

If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'd be pissed off, you can't always do that. You should be able to kick the action open, piss in it, and close it. DONE.

+1 to you.. you have the single most important accessory ANY AR owner could ever own (myself included) and that is a backup AK..


#3 PK90

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 08:51 PM

Nice post Dan. BTW, the 1996 NJAG opinion is now written into the Admin Code. Of course, it still can be changed at will. (it still refers to guns on "the list", and not every firearm).

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#4 vladtepes

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 09:40 PM

+1

good read lots of good points..

I do not think you will see any mass gun grabs though.. it is kind of hard to ban something you allowed to be sold for a decade+... I could see some "newer" guns maybe getting screwed... but it would be kind of hard to tell everybody in NJ that owns a gun with an AR action that it is now illegal.. enforcing that on a real level would IMO be next to impossible..

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#5 Dan

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 09:54 PM

Nice post Dan. BTW, the 1996 NJAG opinion is now written into the Admin Code. Of course, it still can be changed at will. (it still refers to guns on "the list", and not every firearm).



Thanks for the clarification Paul, I forgot to look in the NJAC.

I find also find it interesting on the notion of the statutes notion of the "list" and definition of substantially identical referring to firearms on the list exclusively. Which means any new type of SA gun that comes out is not bound by the AWB law since it would not be on the list.

But then NJAC 13:54-1.2 contradicts the statutes by stating the list is not exclusive, and grouping all SA weapons into it.

"This is not an exclusive list. A semi-automatic firearm should be considered to be “substantially identical," that is, identical in all material respects, to a named assault weapon if it meets the below listed criteria:


That being said, as you pointed out the NJAC and the 1996 "Substantially identical" AG letter both have the same weight , which is not much... as NJ state politicians can alter their guidelines at any time. Still in the same boat.

#6 Dan

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 10:01 PM

+1

good read lots of good points..

I do not think you will see any mass gun grabs though.. it is kind of hard to ban something you allowed to be sold for a decade+... I could see some "newer" guns maybe getting screwed... but it would be kind of hard to tell everybody in NJ that owns a gun with an AR action that it is now illegal.. enforcing that on a real level would IMO be next to impossible..


I thought of that also Vlad. Good point, it would be a pretty big mess going after the public in this manner. They may try to make a few examples out of people, just to spread fear on how people should be avoiding these style guns. Again, there is nothing stopping them besides the NJAC which can be changed or not even followed without repercussions at any time.

What I do see being very possible; however, is a gradual choking off of the supply by mandating to dealers little by little certain styles of guns that they are no longer allowed to sell to the public. So far notch 1 for "AK style" guns by a specific dealer. There are also other dealers choosing not to sell those style guns out of fear. If the AG got away with it at one shop with one broad style (AK styled), then what is stopping them from sending a letter out to all shops/dealers?

#7 vladtepes

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 11:49 PM

things are rarely removed without provocation...

the gun m1 carbine is banned by name..

make a gun that looks exactly like it.. call it an m1 carbine.. and scream from the roofs NJ legal m1 carbine... immediately following flood the NJSP and attorney generals office regarding said firearm..

and expect to have a problem..

take a military grade AR15weld on that brake.. shave off that bayonet lug.. all the while knowing the law is ridiculous.. and just play the game until a substantial change can be made.. that is likely the way to go... at the moment at least.. if ever a substantially identical case came about where the only charge was some BA AWB technicality.. it would be one that would demand a lot of funding.. that would be a case you would NOT want to lose..

another thing is this.. I believe to find guilty in AWB violation case.. a key aspect is that you knowingly violated it.. I have explained publicly a million times over my opinion of the law and how it pertains to my firearms.. I would say that a person knowingly violating the law would not publicly post on a forum... I have in contrast made every effort to comply with the law.. so I am FAR from knowingly in possession of anything illegal.. this is another reason I fear playing into the paranoia of being afraid to call something this or that.. I think that going with the accepted understanding that variants are acceptable providing they are not substantially identical is the way to go.. until you can get real reform of the law that is..

interesting link.. seems pretty detailed..

http://www.judiciary...s/weapons10.pdf

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#8 NicePants

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:04 AM

+1

good read lots of good points..

I do not think you will see any mass gun grabs though.. it is kind of hard to ban something you allowed to be sold for a decade+... I could see some "newer" guns maybe getting screwed... but it would be kind of hard to tell everybody in NJ that owns a gun with an AR action that it is now illegal.. enforcing that on a real level would IMO be next to impossible..


It's that type of post that kind of scares me. Like, look at the new shotgun that keltec is coming out with. 14 round capacity? I have a horrible feeling that the AG is going to take a look at that and start going Great Britain on pump shotguns.
-Marcus

"Do not let your fire go out, spark by irreplaceable spark in the hopeless swaps of the not-quite, the not-yet, and the not-at-all. Do not let the hero in your soul perish in lonely frustration for the life you deserved and have never been able to reach. The world you desire can be won. It exists.. it is real.. it is possible.. it's yours." — Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)

#9 djg0770

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:00 AM

another thing is this.. I believe to find guilty in AWB violation case.. a key aspect is that you knowingly violated it..


State v Pelleteri, 1996 fundamentally contradicts your statement.

We need not recount the facts at length. Defendant, an expert
marksman who at one point was employed as a firearms instructor,
won a Marlin semi-automatic rifle in the late 1980's by placing
first in a police combat match. An avid gun collector, defendant
placed the weapon in his safe. Defendant claimed that he neither
inspected nor used the firearm. When the police recovered the gun
from defendant's residence in December 1993, it still had the
manufacturer's tags and the owner's manual attached to the trigger
guard. The owner's manual indicated that the rifle could hold at
least seventeen cartridges. Defendant claimed that he never read
the manual. While conceding that he knew the rifle was a
semi-automatic weapon, defendant contended that he was unaware that
the firearm had a magazine capacity exceeding fifteen rounds.


At trial, defendant advanced the defenses of mistake of law
and mistake of fact. He asserted that he made diligent inquiry
respecting whether the guns in his collection constituted "assault
firearms" when the 1990 legislation was enacted and obtained the
requisite registration for some of his weapons. Defendant testified
that he did not register the Marlin rifle because he did not know
its fixed capacity exceeded fifteen rounds. The trial judge barred
the defenses of mistake of law and mistake of fact on the grounds
that the statutory prohibition was clearly written and published,
and that knowledge of the specific character of the weapon did not
constitute an element of the offense. In response to a question
propounded by the jury during its deliberations, the judge charged
that defendant could be found guilty if he knowingly possessed the
firearm but was unaware that its fixed capacity exceeded fifteen
rounds.
Defendant was convicted and placed on probation.

http://www.constitut...v_pelleteri.txt


-Dan

The Constitution does NOT give any rights.  It merely lists SOME of those rights.
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#10 vladtepes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:07 AM

State v Pelleteri, 1996 fundamentally contradicts your statement.



having 17 rounds when the law allows 15 is fairly clear..

having an AR type gun that follows all the evil feature nonsense.. and STILL fishing for an AWB violation conviction is IMO a much further stretch..

"well how did you not know you had an assault weapon?"

"well I saw the gun legally for sale in NJ.. but my research did not stop there.. even though the shop had it for sale I did not assume the gun was legal.. I then checked the states named banned gun list just to be safe.. did not see gun model xyz123 specifically listed as being banned... but I also wanted to be positive it was not something that was too similar to the list.. I had no other information available to me so I referenced the AG guidelines for determining if the gun I wanted to purchase was legal.... after seeing the gun legally for sale in NJ.. after being sure it was not banned by name... AND after being sure it did not possess any features that might make it illegal... I went ahead and purchased the gun.. it is obvious that I went above and beyond what would be considered reasonable.. and there is NO reason for me to consider firearm xyz123 illegal"

I think as long as you are talking about something on the shelf in most gun stores.. that is a pretty solid streamlined defense..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
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#11 Dan

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:23 AM

having 17 rounds when the law allows 15 is fairly clear..

having an AR type gun that follows all the evil feature nonsense.. and STILL fishing for an AWB violation conviction is IMO a much further stretch..

"well how did you not know you had an assault weapon?"

"well I saw the gun legally for sale in NJ.. but my research did not stop there.. even though the shop had it for sale I did not assume the gun was legal.. I then checked the states named banned gun list just to be safe.. did not see gun model xyz123 specifically listed as being banned... but I also wanted to be positive it was not something that was too similar to the list.. I had no other information available to me so I referenced the AG guidelines for determining if the gun I wanted to purchase was legal.... after seeing the gun legally for sale in NJ.. after being sure it was not banned by name... AND after being sure it did not possess any features that might make it illegal... I went ahead and purchased the gun.. it is obvious that I went above and beyond what would be considered reasonable.. and there is NO reason for me to consider firearm xyz123 illegal"

I think as long as you are talking about something on the shelf in most gun stores.. that is a pretty solid streamlined defense..


This is why I feel the mechanism the state would/is choosing to use are "letters" to NJ dealers instructing/blackmailing them into not selling particular styles of guns, whether they are on the list or meet evil features or not. This would culminate into a pseudo ban for any new types of these guns being sold in NJ. I highly doubt they would go after individuals, or threaten prosecution based on Vlad's points above.

It would also take a defiant dealer to go against the state's "letter", as that would be a game of push comes to shove and may be dragged into court. Bottom line is even if there is a very good chance that the dealer would win the case... he/she is going up against tremendous legal fees and a possibility that they may be convicted of selling an AW to unauthorized persons. Who wants to take that chance, remember this would be NJ's courts deciding the first round.

The state would have the updated "letter" (even though it goes against the NJAC guidelines) as evidence that the dealer was instructed to not sell those types/styles of weapons. IMO , this is a precursor to the AG attempting to update the NJAC guidelines for all future dealer sales. If she did, unfortunately it would take a huge legal battle to go at the heart of all this absurdity... NJ's AWB statutes.

#12 djg0770

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:26 AM

having 17 rounds when the law allows 15 is fairly clear..


a key aspect is that you knowingly violated it..


Can you pick one point please? Pelleteri did not "knowingly violate", period. That was my point. The gun was OBVIOUSLY never fired. The jury was looking for a reason to let him off. But it's ok - just assume that NJ will not eff you over re: the AWB. :sarcastichand: :icon_rolleyes:

-Dan

The Constitution does NOT give any rights.  It merely lists SOME of those rights.
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#13 vladtepes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 09:01 AM

Can you pick one point please? Pelleteri did not "knowingly violate", period. That was my point. The gun was OBVIOUSLY never fired. The jury was looking for a reason to let him off. But it's ok - just assume that NJ will not eff you over re: the AWB. :sarcastichand: :icon_rolleyes:



again.. I understand that they will not allow you to say "oh I didn't know 100 round drums were illegal" ignorance of the law is not an excuse to break it... but in a AWB violation in which you are NOT substantially identical I see it as an enormous stretch to obtain an AWB conviction..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
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#14 KpdPipes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 11:23 AM

things are rarely removed without provocation...

the gun m1 carbine is banned by name..

make a gun that looks exactly like it.. call it an m1 carbine.. and scream from the roofs NJ legal m1 carbine... immediately following flood the NJSP and attorney generals office regarding said firearm..

Problem is Vlad, with the AO carbines, that it WASNT called an "M-1 Carbine".. it was called an "M-L Carbine", and just "Carbine" in the literature. Now, the IO Ak's are a much better example of what you are speaking about...they HAD the Ak-47 markings which put them solidly into the Substantially Identical arena I had been pissed about that until i looked into it and saw how the recievers were marked. The Carbines OTOH are a whole different story. Auto Ordnance worked within the confines of the AWB, and produced a firearm that while physically simlar, was marked differently... EXACTLY Like, say the difference between a "Colt Ar-15A2 HBAR Sporter" Lower, and a "Bushmaster BCWA2S 20" Lower, or for that matter any other AR lowers out there. It's come down to a game of sematics.... The terms "AR", "AK", "Carbine" and others have come to be generic terms for entire families of firearms, the same as we do for other products (Q-tip, and "Kleenex' come immediately to mind.

#15 vladtepes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 11:35 AM

Problem is Vlad, with the AO carbines, that it WASNT called an "M-1 Carbine".. it was called an "M-L Carbine", and just "Carbine" in the literature. Now, the IO Ak's are a much better example of what you are speaking about...they HAD the Ak-47 markings which put them solidly into the Substantially Identical arena I had been pissed about that until i looked into it and saw how the recievers were marked. The Carbines OTOH are a whole different story. Auto Ordnance worked within the confines of the AWB, and produced a firearm that while physically simlar, was marked differently... EXACTLY Like, say the difference between a "Colt Ar-15A2 HBAR Sporter" Lower, and a "Bushmaster BCWA2S 20" Lower, or for that matter any other AR lowers out there. It's come down to a game of sematics.... The terms "AR", "AK", "Carbine" and others have come to be generic terms for entire families of firearms, the same as we do for other products (Q-tip, and "Kleenex' come immediately to mind.



try to count the times you read the words m1 carbine..

http://www.auto-ordn.../pr_ar0506.html

while it might not be marked an M1 carbine.. they are literally calling it one EVERY chance they get..

http://www.auto-ordn.../PA-1AO_m1.html

it is akin to skirting drug laws prohibiting marijuana.. by creating a marijuana like synthetic that is not "technically" marijuana.. again had they quietly released the firearm into the pool.. and enthusiasts didn't ring the phones off the hook.. that vary gun might still be available..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

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#16 vjf915

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 11:57 AM

while it might not be marked an M1 carbine.. they are literally calling it one EVERY chance they get..

calling it an AK47 is a moot point.. while it may draw some unwanted attention.. at the end of the day.. pistol grip... or no pistol grip.. AK gas tube.. or Saiga gas tube.. the gun is STILL a Saiga.. and what YOU call it is totally irrelevant.. I am going to start calling mine "ak47 machine gun equipped with big bullet blasting box".. does not make gun any more legal or illegal..

Edit: Found the quote. This is from two days ago, so it's pretty current. My point is exactly what you said in the second post.....it doesn't matter what you CALL the gun. AO can call it an M1 Carbine all they want....that's just marketing. At the end of the day, the markings on the receiver are what matter.

If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'd be pissed off, you can't always do that. You should be able to kick the action open, piss in it, and close it. DONE.

+1 to you.. you have the single most important accessory ANY AR owner could ever own (myself included) and that is a backup AK..


#17 PK90

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 01:00 PM

Just as a POI, AFAIK, no firearm has ever had as a model name "M1 Carbine". All government and commercial models had the markings of "US CARBINE" and "CAL 30 M1". Auto Ordnance has "US CARBINE" and "CAL 30 ML". What the name has to do with it I don't know. The "M1 carbine type" is what is banned. IMO, if the gun is like (similiar in design) an M1 carbine type, it must fall under the evil feature guideline and Admin Code, which it clearly does. There has never been a viable reason given as to why an M1 Carbine is banned.

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#18 Dan

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 02:58 PM

So how for instance is the AO carbine (or even a US Carbine) is banned from being sold in NJ, yet a for instance a myriad of other SA types of rifles are not. If you apply the same (ill)logic that NJ uses , they could at anytime decide to do this. Just another example of how the unconstitutionally vague statute "substantially identical" and the NJAC regs aka "evil feature list" conspire to create an atmosphere ripe for abuse by NJ officials.

It does appear they are using a blending of the Statutes and NJAC regs to mandate their will on NJ dealers and citizens. They are claiming "substantially identical" , combined with the NJAC regs "list is not exclusive" wording, then ignoring the Evil Feature List altogether. They've basically created a situation where they can dictate by decree their ideas of what should be banned, using the fear of criminal charges/lawsuit as the enforcement mechanism.

The NJ AG is probably shooting for powers similar to NYC, where officials can choose to define any model firearm a AW by merely making an announcement that it is banned. No rules to follow, no due process, just the stroke of a pen by one person.

#19 KpdPipes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:25 PM

try to count the times you read the words m1 carbine..

http://www.auto-ordn.../pr_ar0506.html

while it might not be marked an M1 carbine.. they are literally calling it one EVERY chance they get..

http://www.auto-ordn.../PA-1AO_m1.html

it is akin to skirting drug laws prohibiting marijuana.. by creating a marijuana like synthetic that is not "technically" marijuana.. again had they quietly released the firearm into the pool.. and enthusiasts didn't ring the phones off the hook.. that vary gun might still be available..


Ok, then by that standard, if you go to Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, and pretty much ANY OTHER Manufacturer of AR-s, they are called "AR-15" at every chance they get...so there foe we shoud expect all of our AR's to be classified as Illegal any day now. What makes it Substantially Identical is the MARKINGS... Again, you can have 2 IDENICAL Lowers next to each other, and because one is marked "Colt Ar-15" and One is marked "Colt Model 6920" One is a felony to possess and one is 10000000% legal. Again it's come down to Semantics, that's ALL the Ag has to hang her hat on...I;ve said it before and I'll say it again the AO Carbine debacle was noone's fault BUT OUR OWN. NJSP's FIU was getting 50 calls per DAY..it was only a matter of time before the wrong person answered the phone and kicked it upstairs to the AG for review. if a couple of hundred had been sold and were out there, the Authorization letter would have been a Fait Accomplis...and it might have opened the door up down the line to possibly get some different other models authorized.

#20 KpdPipes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:33 PM

Just as a POI, AFAIK, no firearm has ever had as a model name "M1 Carbine". All government and commercial models had the markings of "US CARBINE" and "CAL 30 M1". Auto Ordnance has "US CARBINE" and "CAL 30 ML". What the name has to do with it I don't know. The "M1 carbine type" is what is banned. IMO, if the gun is like (similiar in design) an M1 carbine type, it must fall under the evil feature guideline and Admin Code, which it clearly does. There has never been a viable reason given as to why an M1 Carbine is banned.


Problem now Paul, is what other doors has this opened??? "Avtomat Kalashnikov Type" is a pretty broad classification as well..... If they could do that with the Carbines, what's to say Ms Dow in her infinite Wisdom, cannot reclassify EVERY VERSION of the AK "Type" as Unlawful tomorrow..give everyone in the state who possesses one 90 days to Sell, Turn in, or Render Inop their rifles????? The AO carbine issue took an already nebulous slope and coated it with axle grease. We've been saying that the Saiga, Mak-90, Arsenal, NoDak, Ext is NOT = to an Avtomat Kalashnikov "Type' ( same with Ar's) but we're hanging out hats on a precedence because of the markings on those recievers...and the AO carbine decision pretty much nullified that argument if Dow REALLY wanted to push it...and we're under the Sword of Damocles that consists of her waking up one day with a wild hair in her a** until the day that she is no longer AG.

As to the part in red..you KNOW as well as I do that it was the Malcom X photo...they'll just never admit it.

#21 mipafox

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 04:53 PM

...This has me reaching for my tinfoil hat. As in no longer posting pics and discussing any shall we say "cool looking" SA guns in such a way that indicates that I own one...


How bout it. I'll tell you, I've posted a lot of pics on this website...



...but I've never posted a pic of one of my semiautomatic firearms.



For example:

[attachment=1201:P1010042c.jpg]



That is NOT a semiautomatic firearm :p
FYI - I live in PA

#22 vladtepes

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 05:33 PM

Ok, then by that standard, if you go to Bushmaster, Stag, DPMS, and pretty much ANY OTHER Manufacturer of AR-s, they are called "AR-15" at every chance they get...so there foe we shoud expect all of our AR's to be classified as Illegal any day now.



because "ar15" is banned by name? I don't even know what you are talking about..

"ar15" is not banned by name.. so that is irrelevant..
"m1 carbine" is banned by name... so why you would want to call something that when you intend to sell in a state that bans it... is beyond me..

the problem with the manufacture labeling it the same as a banned gun is you get the same result you just got.. everyone rings the NJSP and AG off the hook.. and they ban it..

Edit: Found the quote. This is from two days ago, so it's pretty current. My point is exactly what you said in the second post.....it doesn't matter what you CALL the gun. AO can call it an M1 Carbine all they want....that's just marketing. At the end of the day, the markings on the receiver are what matter.


what I call the gun is irrelevant.. I am not a firearms manufacture.. I am just some nobody on the interwebs..

I am not trying to argue this.. since it is about something that really doesn't even effect me to a great degree.. I am on my way out.. I am simply discussing the law and events as I have seen it..


like it or not.. right or wrong.. the NJ firearms community has adopted the "evil features" game as the "legal test" for a semi automatic rifle... in addition to a specific list of banned guns.. the AO carbine SHOULD have been legal because it 1) is not listed by NAME and 2) does not violate the evil features.. so the gun SHOULD have been legal.. I agree that it is a bunch of BS that it is not... but it doesn't change the fact that the companies marketing of the unit and the extreme reaction the community had.. is likely the cause of the gun being illegal..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#23 KpdPipes

KpdPipes
  • LocationKeansburg, Monmouth County
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:04 PM

because "ar15" is banned by name? I don't even know what you are talking about..

"ar15" is not banned by name.. so that is irrelevant.."m1 carbine" is banned by name... so why you would want to call something that when you intend to sell in a state that bans it... is beyond me..


Ya Think??? Better read 2C:39 again


Direct from 2C:39-1w(1) The following firearms:

Algimec AGM1 type

Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"

Armalite AR-180 type

Australian Automatic Arms SAR

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms

Bushmaster Assault Rifle

Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900

CETME G3

Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type

Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 seriesDaewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types

#24 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 01 May 2011 - 06:27 PM

Ya Think??? Better read 2C:39 again


Direct from 2C:39-1w(1) The following firearms:

Algimec AGM1 type

Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the "Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"

Armalite AR-180 type

Australian Automatic Arms SAR

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms

Bushmaster Assault Rifle

Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900

CETME G3

Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type

Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 seriesDaewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types


a colt AR15 is not all AR15s available?

again.. not really interested in arguing.. the logic that they are utilizing right or wrong is enforcing a specific named banned list..

also colt is a bad example because I am pretty sure that they had a specific named exemption

but I could be reading this wrong..

http://www.state.nj....t/fire_ag1.html


ok... different question.. they NEVER even said the word m1 carbine... and they initially released it with like a 15 round mag (with larger capacity available) not that the mag capacity should matter.. but in the end you end up with what is perception... they know they will not be able to ban every gun.. because it will create too much backlash.. so instead they seem to pick and choose.. and unfortunately they pick the easy ones first.. "io AK" you get it... I am not saying any of that is right.. but I just dont envision then even paying any attention to a gun like that had it chose to fly under the radar.. touting it as a NJ legal M1 carbine was a pretty risky move.. yeah you captured the interest of the community.. but unfortunately.. because YOU MARKET IT AS AN M1 CARBINE.. the gun can not be sold.. you say to the manufacture.. is this gun an m1 carbine? they say YES it is.. we advertise it that way.. and they say well m1 carbine is illegal.. so it can not be sold.. it is a simple easy slam dunk for them.. ARs... AKs.. on the other hand are not.. while "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms" are illegal.. A WASR is not.. but a WASR is kind of similar to "Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms" a "clone"... so the understanding is you must use the evil features game to be sure the gun is not a violation.. you know.. if someone made an M1 carbine clone.. and called it something simple.. and released it in NJ.. then it would be a clone.. just like the masterpiece arms.. AR.. AK.. ETC... clones.. and the evil features game would apply... one with a pistol grip and folder would be illegal... but a simple carbine would not.. I really think the only miscalculation with that gun was the aggressive "M1 carbine" marketing..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#25 vjf915

vjf915
  • LocationEwing

Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:02 PM

I really think the only miscalculation with that gun was the aggressive "M1 carbine" marketing..

While I understand where you are coming from....how they advertise is completely irrelevant. Glock can advertise their 15 round magazines as 30 round magazines....as long as they cannot accept more than 15 rounds, they are legal in NJ. It can even literally say "30 round capacity" on the side of the mag, it's still legal here. Sh*t they can even call it a "fully automatic big bullet blasting box"....and it would still be 100% legal in NJ if it could not accept any more than 15 rounds. Yes, it would draw unwanted attention, but that is completely irrelevant from the legal aspect as the law states that magazines cannot hold more than 15 rounds.

If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'd be pissed off, you can't always do that. You should be able to kick the action open, piss in it, and close it. DONE.

+1 to you.. you have the single most important accessory ANY AR owner could ever own (myself included) and that is a backup AK..


#26 vladtepes

vladtepes
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:20 PM

me: The company calls the gun an M1 carbine

everyone else: the model number does not say M1 carbine

me: the law NAMES guns.. the company CALLS THEIR OWN GUN an M1 carbine..

everyone else: the model number does not say M1 carbine

we will have to simply agree to disagree.. when I am wrong I am wrong.. and maybe I am wrong now..

if they really wanted a leg to stand on.. maybe the guns documentation should not have M1 carbine all over it..
http://www.auto-ordn...aom1_manual.pdf

you can believe what you want.. but screaming M1 carbine got this gun **** canned.. maybe one day the right person will come along and prove me right..

Click Each of the following to learn about rules and regulations regarding NJ. Each has detailed information allowing you to understand what you can and can not have.
Semiautomatic Rifle Semiautomatic Handgun Semiautomatic Shotgun


Information On Modifying Imported Semi Automatic Rifles (922)

Saiga Build Information Saiga 7.62x39 Build

BackwoodsCustomCoatings im not breaking your balls...youre seriously crazy...

 

 


#27 vjf915

vjf915
  • LocationEwing

Posted 01 May 2011 - 07:36 PM

when I am wrong I am wrong.. and maybe I am wrong now..

I don't really think this is a matter of "right and wrong". I think this is much more of a personal opinion.

If I had to clean a gun my life depended on every day I'd be pissed off, you can't always do that. You should be able to kick the action open, piss in it, and close it. DONE.

+1 to you.. you have the single most important accessory ANY AR owner could ever own (myself included) and that is a backup AK..


#28 The Dark Knight

The Dark Knight

Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:22 PM

I'm unable to reconcile the "logic" in the following:

"M1 Carbine Type" is banned therefore even if a "US Carbine ML" or "CAL 30 ML" or whatever the heck, with a 10/15 round magazine, having no "evil features" that would make it fail the features test, it is still illegal because the weapon is similar in type to "M1 Carbine Type"

However

"Avtomat Kalashnikov Type Semiautomatic Firearms" are banned and yet, if it says "WASR" and does not have enough features to fail the feature test, it is legal, despite being an "Avtomat Kalashnikov Type" and is sold in most NJ gun shops.

How does this make sense at all? I simply don't understand either how "ML Carbine" is not legal, or that "WASR" is illegal. I just seriously don't understand that. Does it simply come down to the fact that no one (law abiding) really has M1 Carbines so they stay illegal, but lots of people have AKs and the state doesn't have the desire to come take them? Kinda like a "genie's already out of the bottle, too late" kind of thing?

I understand there's been several shitstorms here over this and I'm not trying to start another. But if any legal gurus could please explain to me, how the same law can be interpreted two different ways.

#29 Dan

Dan
  • LocationMatawan, NJ
  • Home Range:CJRPC

Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:23 PM

me: The company calls the gun an M1 carbine

everyone else: the model number does not say M1 carbine

me: the law NAMES guns.. the company CALLS THEIR OWN GUN an M1 carbine..

everyone else: the model number does not say M1 carbine

we will have to simply agree to disagree.. when I am wrong I am wrong.. and maybe I am wrong now..

if they really wanted a leg to stand on.. maybe the guns documentation should not have M1 carbine all over it..
http://www.auto-ordn...aom1_manual.pdf

you can believe what you want.. but screaming M1 carbine got this gun **** canned.. maybe one day the right person will come along and prove me right..


Canned under what law or administrative code is the real question? Just because people call it M1 carbine doesn't mean that it is. The model number clearly is not M1 Carbine. Just like people call their Saiga or whatever an "AK" doesn't mean that it is. Someone can call their Honda a BMW, doesn't mean that it is one.

The root of the issue is how the AG is wielding the power to block sales of certain guns based on subjective and personal feelings rather than the letter of the law (statutes) or even her own friggin guidelines she is supposed to be upholding (NJAC evil feature list). It is a dangerous precedent to let stand. Unfortunately there is no organized or funded effort to fight it.

As I said before, the new name of the game is "regulation" nowadays. The anti's are going to push as far as they can, "regulating" us to single shot .22's. The IO rifle example is shot across the bow.

#30 The Dark Knight

The Dark Knight

Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:24 PM

me: The company calls the gun an M1 carbine

everyone else: the model number does not say M1 carbine

me: the law NAMES guns.. the company CALLS THEIR OWN GUN an M1 carbine..

everyone else: the model number does not say M1 carbine

we will have to simply agree to disagree.. when I am wrong I am wrong.. and maybe I am wrong now..

if they really wanted a leg to stand on.. maybe the guns documentation should not have M1 carbine all over it..
http://www.auto-ordn...aom1_manual.pdf

you can believe what you want.. but screaming M1 carbine got this gun **** canned.. maybe one day the right person will come along and prove me right..


And yet, you contradict your own opinion. You don't own an Avtomat Kalashnikov type, right? You own a Saiga, you say. Yet you post on here in the "AK Section" and on other "AK Forums" so by the simple existence of the "AK Section" that would be enough justification to simply "pull the plug" and call Saigas, WASRs, MAK90s, etc. illegal.

Your Saiga is manufactured at the original Izhevsk Arsenal in Russia, the original and main AK factory. The factory staff still includes Mikhail Kalashnikov, designer of the AK and the RAAC openly advertises that the line of Saiga rifles is based on the AK military pattern weapon. I'm not sure why you're ragging on IO for calling it an AK when RAAC calls the Saiga an AK on their site (and youtube videos, and advertisements).

And unlike IO, which is just a US company trying to look like AK builders, Saiga comes from Izhmash, the real deal Russian AK creators and manufacturers and is advertised as such. Heck, Saiga is even advertised as being developed on the base of an assault rifle.

So...yeah....

THE SAIGA IS AN AUTOLOADING RIFLE with a hunting buttstock and fore end (plastic). The Saiga rifles are intended for hunting big and medium-sized game under different climatic conditions. The rifles are developed on the base of the venerable Kalashnikov assault rifle and chambered for 7.62x39, . 223 Rem (5.56x45), and 5.45x39 cartridges. Additional buttstock available with adjustable cheek rest.






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