Spouse hold gun in house

[nj22 2]

I keep searching but can't seem to get the terms right. I'm sure this has been covered, but I'm inept at searching the forum.

 

I read some article on the nj.com site about "bizarre" NJ gun laws, which includes that a wife can't handle her husband's firearm in their own home. I've seen it repeated here. But doesn't NJ law state that "Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm..."

 

Doesn't any firearm mean any firearm? As in, no matter who it belongs to, anyone can handle any firearm in their residence? Be it their spouse's or their own?

 

Sorry if this has been beaten to death.

[PK90 3,573]

You will get varied opinions on this.

 

IMHO, anyone who is not a prohibited person may possess a firearm in their home.

[vladtepes 1,060]

well lets start on the other side.. what law WOULD make it illegal for a spouse to handle a husbands gun?

[MrP 81]

well lets start on the other side.. what law WOULD make it illegal for a spouse to handle a husbands gun?

 

Or a wife's.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I was the one who did make the statement in the other thread and IANAL and I was just going by some of the discussions here from he past when I did make that statement in the other thread. I was asked to show a PDF or link to where it says this. I forgot about it after getting busy at work and I apologies for not getting back like I said I was going to.

 

Anyway, as has been said here and no direct wording to the fact that I could find to back my position I will only offer what I had read before that is my best recollection of what I read and that legally, don't mean a thing.

 

My impression was from the statements that handguns were illegal except when they fall under the exemptions allowed by the PR of NJ. Also the thought that what is a temporary transfer, and where these transfers can take place as written.

 

Well it was an assumption that when you combined the 2 your home wasn't one of these locations, well looking back that may be doing way too much reading between the lines and doing one of the things I don't like, coming up with another NJ BS rule that doesn't exist in writing.

 

With that said, I'll take my words and eat them, and say this is what you do when you assume and It looks like I was the 1st 3 letter of the what happens when you assume things.

[Malsua 1,422]

Harry,

 

What's there to back off from?

 

The statutes define what a temporary transfer is. They define where they can take place. Any place that is not defined as allowable, is by inference, not allowable.

 

A spouse is allowed to carry any firearm in the home, so they cannot be charged with illegal possession of a firearm. They could be charged under this statute with an illegal transfer. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I don't think anyone ever has, or probably ever will get charged in this fashion(Scott Bach's assertion was not a spouse). The law allows this charge, under this statute.

 

People will argue "There's no law that says you can't". Sure, but there are many laws that define allowable behavior and by inference disallow when that behavior falls outside of the allowable definitions. "You must not drive faster than the posted speed limit" "Yeah, but it doesn't say I can't go 75". Same concept.

 

2C:58-3.1. temporary transfer of firearms

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifleor shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun, if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

 

A transfer under this subsection shall be for not more than eight consecutive hours in any 24-hour period and may be made for a set fee or an hourly charge.

 

The firearm shall be handled and used by the person to whom it is temporarily transferred only in the actual presence or under the direct supervision of the legal owner of the firearm, the dealer who transferred the firearm or any other person competent to supervise the handling and use of firearms and authorized to act for that purpose by the legal owner or licensed dealer. The legal owner of the firearm or the licensed dealer shall be on the premises or the property of the firing range during the entire time that the firearm is in the possession of the person to whom it is temporarily transferred.

[PK90 3,573]

Mark, the temporary transfer is only one way to transfer and that statute only addresses that way.

 

The other exemption is for possession in the home as nj22 quoted and is stated under NJS 2C:39-6e

Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

[Malsua 1,422]

Mark, the temporary transfer is only one way to transfer and that statute only addresses that way.

 

The other exemption is for possession in the home as nj22 quoted and is stated under NJS 2C:39-6e

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I am aware of a permanent transfer or temporary transfer. Is there more?

 

As for possession in the home, sure, I agree. You can possess guns in your home. The issue here is how you got the gun, as in a transfer.

[nj22 2]

Harry--

You're definitely not the only person who has suggested a spouse to spouse transfer in the home is illegal, and I certainly didn't post this to call you out on anything. I was really responding to the nj.com article and my own confusion.

 

That being said, to me at least, it seems pretty clear that while there are strict laws about when and where temporary transfers can occur, no law shall be construed as forbidding anyone from handling any gun on their own property, including guns belonging to other residents of the same property.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Harry--

You're definitely not the only person who has suggested a spouse to spouse transfer in the home is illegal, and I certainly didn't post this to call you out on anything. I was really responding to the nj.com article and my own confusion.

 

That being said, to me at least, it seems pretty clear that while there are strict laws about when and where temporary transfers can occur, no law shall be construed as forbidding anyone from handling any gun on their own property, including guns belonging to other residents of the same property.

 

Oh, I didn't take it as you calling me out, not at all, heck you would know if I though you were , plus I would rather have anything anyone of us says that may have some incorrect information in whole or part corrected for the next person reading it. Also the post did remind me that I did say that i was going to respond in the other thread that I didn't do, so I did it here. That and I wanted to state my position on why I did say what I said, as well as taking into account what Mark Posted and your reference. Heck when it's all said and done as Mark said, I don't think anyone has even been charged or will be especially a spouse. I'll keep it as is in my house (you all be quite would ya), that way my OL has to clean her own gun, I have enough of mine to keep clean.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

One could argue that if the gun was purchased by either spouse during the course of the marriage, both persons are said owner of guns.

 

Get divorced and see if your spouse is entitled to half of your gun collection (acquired during the marriage).

[Malsua 1,422]

One could argue that if the gun was purchased by either spouse during the course of the marriage, both persons are said owner of guns.

 

Get divorced and see if your spouse is entitled to half of your gun collection (acquired during the marriage).

 

The ATF doesn't care who owns it as long as the recipient isn't a prohibited person and the firearm isn't NFA or some other class that requires special permission from a government commissar. It's only NJ that is nutty on the whole thing and as far as I've read I have not see anywhere that a spouse has special permission(i.e. ownership by marriage) vs a non relation.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

The ATF doesn't care who owns it as long as the recipient isn't a prohibited person and the firearm isn't NFA or some other class that requires special permission from a government commissar. It's only NJ that is nutty on the whole thing and as far as I've read I have not see anywhere that a spouse has special permission(i.e. ownership by marriage) vs a non relation.

 

You don't have to see it. By law in NJ the spouse owns half. Period.

[Malsua 1,422]

You don't have to see it. By law in NJ the spouse owns half. Period.

 

I wasn't arguing that the spouse has no financial claim on a gun. The spouse has no legal rights to take possession in gun law. For example, do you believe that if husband was a pistol collector and had 100 pistols, that during a divorce the wife could simply take possession of 50 of them? The wife may have a 50% financial stake in them, but I believe NJ will require the spouse to get permit to purchase a pistol to take possession of those 50 guns. What is more likely is that an appraisal would be taken and the husband would be on the hook for half the value to the wife, or failing that, the wife takes possession for a maximum of 180 days and must dispose of them as if she were a prohibited person.

[Dan 177]

As others said, it is all about the transfer. The spouse holding the gun in the house is perfectly legal, as she is covered under possession exemptions, so she can't be charged with illegal posession. Now the act of her taking possession (the actual disposition or transfer) from the husband to the wife is what is illegal (unless she has an FID and proper forms were filled out, COE, Pistol PP) under our laws since the "transfer" took place inside NJ.

 

This is especially important when it comes to HG's since they are "voluntarily registered" whenever you use a Pistol PP in NJ. A simple check on the HG will show it being registered to the husband, in which the question can come up to how did the wife take possession (transfer) in the first place. They will know it was not inherited by her, and that she did not move into NJ with it (only two ways she can come into possession of a HG in NJ without using a Pistol PP). Bingo, illegal transfer as your home is not considered a valid location for temporary transfers according to NJ law.

 

Sure it is highly unlikely this would ever be enforced, but the wording of the law is such that it could be.

[LorenzoS 100]

I heard at a gun shop that hollowpoints are illegal for self defense. The guy's cousin knows a cop who knows of a case where a guy got arrested for it. Then the spouse got arrested for picking up a spent casing.

 

Totally, totally true story for sure. I'm super serious.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

.. No. Not true.

[LorenzoS 100]

Totally serious dude. Heard it at a gun shop and we're talking about a guy related to a cop who totally really heard it.

[Dan 177]

I totally heard about this troll that totally trolled on a forums , serious

[Joeybones 1]

What about handling guns in a gun store. Is that an illegal transfer ?

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I totally heard about this troll that totally trolled on a forums , serious

 

That's not trolling, that's being obviously facetious.

Trolling is more like the guy who started the thread recently about CCW in NJ, and got a couple of pages of responses.

[vladtepes 1,060]

the gun is not being transferred to anyone..

 

Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

 

it does not say it has to be a gun YOU own.. it just says.. in YOUR house.. you can CARRY ANY firearm..

 

so if I have a gun in my home that I legally own..

and my wife picks up said gun in HER home.. (where we live together)

no problem?

 

because.. as the law says.. NOTHING is going to prevent a person from carrying a gun in their home.. A GUN.. not a gun they own.. just A GUN.. literally.. as the law is written?

 

unless of course I am reading that wrong?

[PK90 3,573]

Okay, I'll bite. If the possession is legal by the spouse, or anyone not prohibited, while in the home, BUT the transfer is illegal, what statute would the transferee or transferor be charged with.

 

 

[Dan 177]

Okay, I'll bite. If the possession is legal by the spouse, or anyone not prohibited, while in the home, BUT the transfer is illegal, what statute would the transferee or transferor be charged with.

 

 

 

The same one as if I sold/gifted you a gun and didn't fill out a COE/ and checking FID/ID for a long gun and of course add a Pistol Permit if it was a HG. If its not under temporary transfer exemptions, you need to do those things before transferring a gun to someone else. That's my interpretation, wrong or right as it may be....

[Dan 177]

the gun is not being transferred to anyone..

 

 

 

it does not say it has to be a gun YOU own.. it just says.. in YOUR house.. you can CARRY ANY firearm..

 

so if I have a gun in my home that I legally own..

and my wife picks up said gun in HER home.. (where we live together)

no problem?

 

because.. as the law says.. NOTHING is going to prevent a person from carrying a gun in their home.. A GUN.. not a gun they own.. just A GUN.. literally.. as the law is written?

 

unless of course I am reading that wrong?

 

When this topic came up once before, I hypothesized this as well. If the husbands gun was sitting there in the safe, and the wife opened the safe and picked it up herself... technically the husband did not "transfer" the gun to the wife... she took possession of it, and she is legally able to posses the gun in her home.

 

One can take this logic further, and lets say you meet me in a parking lot of some industrial park (not a place listed in temporary transfer exemptions) with a long gun. You are using the exemption that if you have and FID, you are permitted to posses the long gun even when not going to a range, etc.

 

You now hand the rifle to me, lets say it is still in the case unloaded. Since I have an FID also, I technically am permitted to be in posession of the long gun as well. The problem is you transferred it to me... and technically you should have had me fill out a COE and checked my FID/ID, etc before transferring it to me.

 

Now lets say you open the trunk, and the rifle is sitting there in the case. You now walk away. I then pick up the rifle. Again, I am legal to posses the rifle (I have my FID), but just because you walked away and I picked it up by myself, does that mean an illegal transfer didn't take place? There was no COE filled out, and no checking of FID/ID, etc.

 

on another note,

 

I do realize these conditions are so far fetched and 99.999% of the time not going to be an issue for anyone, but I think it is enlightening to think these things through around our state's ludicrous gun laws. It just proves how ambiguous and confusing our laws truly are.

[vladtepes 1,060]

When this topic came up once before, I hypothesized this as well. If the husbands gun was sitting there in the safe, and the wife opened the safe and picked it up herself... technically the husband did not "transfer" the gun to the wife... she took possession of it, and she is legally able to posses the gun in her home.

 

One can take this logic further, and lets say you meet me in a parking lot of some industrial park (not a place listed in temporary transfer exemptions) with a long gun. You are using the exemption that if you have and FID, you are permitted to posses the long gun even when not going to a range, etc.

 

You now hand the rifle to me, lets say it is still in the case unloaded. Since I have an FID also, I technically am permitted to be in posession of the long gun as well. The problem is you transferred it to me... and technically you should have had me fill out a COE and checked my FID/ID, etc before transferring it to me.

 

Now lets say you open the trunk, and the rifle is sitting there in the case. You now walk away. I then pick up the rifle. Again, I am legal to posses the rifle (I have my FID), but just because you walked away and I picked it up by myself, does that mean an illegal transfer didn't take place? There was no COE filled out, and no checking of FID/ID, etc.

 

on another note,

 

I do realize these conditions are so far fetched and 99.999% of the time not going to be an issue for anyone, but I think it is enlightening to think these things through around our state's ludicrous gun laws. It just proves how ambiguous and confusing our laws truly are.

 

 

 

the difference is.. in the home.. is specifically spelled out.. it says.. ANY firearm IN the home..

 

so while you could argue the other points you listed.. the law is less clear.. it does not say "in an industrial park" as it does IN the home..

 

also COE is for transferring a gun to a new owner.. my wife handling a gun in the home is not a new or different owner..

[Dan 177]

the difference is.. in the home.. is specifically spelled out.. it says.. ANY firearm IN the home..

 

so while you could argue the other points you listed.. the law is less clear.. it does not say "in an industrial park" as it does IN the home..

 

also COE is for transferring a gun to a new owner.. my wife handling a gun in the home is not a new or different owner..

 

The home is just another exempted place for the condition of possession, just like having an FID makes you possessing a long gun in the parking lot legal. Under our laws, there are two kinds of transfer, permanent and temporary. If you can't meet the specifics for temporary, your only other option is permanent... requiring COE and PPP, etc.

 

Transferring any gun in the parking lot or in your home is not specified as being valid for a temporary transfer, thus your only other option is permanent.

[vladtepes 1,060]

The home is just another exempted place for the condition of possession, just like having an FID makes you possessing a long gun in the parking lot legal. Under our laws, there are two kinds of transfer, permanent and temporary. If you can't meet the specifics for temporary, your only other option is permanent... requiring COE and PPP, etc.

 

Transferring any gun in the parking lot or in your home is not specified as being valid for a temporary transfer, thus your only other option is permanent.

 

I disagree.. in the home is specifically spells out that it is ANY gun... not one owned.. not one transferred.. not one you got from the store.. it says.. ANY gun.. so as long as the gun is legal to be in NJ to begin with.. the law says.. in your home you can carry it around..

 

In your scenario I guess for arguments sake.. you could come up to my car.. pick up my cased rifle.. and then put it back down? providing you have a FID.. as you put it.. that states it is legal for you to have a long gun.. but to what end? I am still the owner.. you are merely holding the gun? walk away with it.. and become the new owner.. that is where the need for paperwork begins.. because the gun is no longer my property.. and therefore I have to transfer it to you..

 

you holding my rifle in the parking lot.. my wife holding my pistol in the house.. I am STILL the owner.. they are just handling the firearms..

 

so I still don't really get your point about not needing COE

[Dan 177]

The point again... there are two ways for you to transfer possession of a gun from yourself to someone else... temporary or permanent. For temporary xfers, there are specific rules and conditions to be met, like being at a range or training class, in the woods hunting, etc. That leaves all other forms of transfer options to be permanent, which requires a COE, and or pistol permit , and checking FID/ID.

 

By allowing someone to handle your gun outside the rules and conditions of a temporary xfer, that is technically breaking the law in my interpretation of the law unless you go through the motions of a permanent xfer.

 

Your argument does have potential around the "any" comment in the home exemption. Clever.

 

The temporary xfer statute does state:

 

"Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, or from carrying the same"

 

With the "any other statute" being the home exemption one:

 

"Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm"

 

It could be argued that 2C:39-6 e. is a "statute to the contrary" of 2C:58-3.1 a.

[diamondd817 828]

So, lets say im not home, some one breaks in, my wife grabs one of my guns and shoots the criminal. Who would be the actual criminal?