Carrying at work...

[RedBowTies88 41]

So I work for my father at a business owned by himself and my grandmother (its an LLC). Can I legally CC on the premesis? Its by no means a dangerious place however I would like to get used to having it on my person for when i make out of state trips with my soon to come UTAH permit.

 

Its an 11 acre mobile home community..

[vladtepes 1,060]

So I work for my father at a business owned by himself and my grandmother

no.. the business must be your own..

 

e. Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about hisplace of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a

fixed location.

 

http://njgunforums.c...j-gun-law-faqs/

[Dan 177]

IANAL, but I'd say you look good to go. If you work at the 11 acre park, and have a w-2 and paychecks from your father's company, it is your "place of business" that is a "fixed location".

 

e.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm, or from carrying the same, in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section, from any place of purchase to his residence or place of business, between his dwelling and his place of business, between one place of business or residence and another when moving, or between his dwelling or place of business and place where such firearms are repaired, for the purpose of repair. For the purposes of this section, a place of business shall be deemed to be a fixed location.

[Dan 177]

no.. the business must be your own..

 

 

 

http://njgunforums.c...j-gun-law-faqs/

 

You interpret that as you being the owner?

[TheLugNutZ 21]

I think you are good to go. This "his place of business" doesnt specifically mean you have to be the owner. Just means your place of business.

 

I know people that work in a jewelry store. Each person in there carries openly. Its mostly a family business, but i dont think they all have partial ownership. Most are just employees..

[Dan 177]

I think you are good to go. This "his place of business" doesnt specifically mean you have to be the owner. Just means your place of business.

 

I know people that work in a jewelry store. Each person in there carries openly. Its mostly a family business, but i dont think they all have partial ownership. Most are just employees..

 

Exactly, otherwise under section e. exemptions, nobody could rent a home (dwelling), apartment, or lease a storefront (place of business) and be able to carry there. The exemptions state "his dwelling... residence... place of business". Doesn't imply ownership, it implies a state of being, as in I live/reside here (my apartment), I work here (my jobsite location).

[RedBowTies88 41]

Interesting...I can see how it could be read either way. I was just wondering mostly about it being a mobile home park. We own all 11 acres but we have 70ish tenants who rent from us within that property.

[vladtepes 1,060]

we had a lengthy discussion about this and I believe the intention is the owner of the business...

I base this on the word "his" being a word that expresses ownership.. and I also base this on several dealings with local governing bodies stating that armed employees is a "no go" and the store involved should simply "hire armed security"

[RedBowTies88 41]

we had a lengthy discussion about this and I believe the intention is the owner of the business...

I base this on the word "his" being a word that expresses ownership.. and I also base this on several dealings with local governing bodies stating that armed employees is a "no go" and the store involved should simply "hire armed security"

 

In that respect the "armed security" would have to have a CCW permit correct? seeing as it also isn't their property.

 

side idea: Maybe i could get my old man to change my job title to "security" and apply for a CCW permit? eh eh? lol

 

Also, pretenting the argument was won in favor of me being able to carry i assume it would make no difference between concealed and open?

[TheLugNutZ 21]

I just dont see how this would be an issue. Its private property. IMO the only issue should be transporting it there legally and thats where the "his place of business" comes in...

 

I can also see where a LEO would be coming from if he makes an arrest. Then have fun paying for a lawyer in defence. I personally think its good to go , but obviously thats just my opinion...

[vladtepes 1,060]

Exactly, otherwise under section e. exemptions, nobody could rent a home (dwelling), apartment, or lease a storefront (place of business) and be able to carry there. The exemptions state "his dwelling... residence... place of business". Doesn't imply ownership, it implies a state of being, as in I live/reside here (my apartment), I work here (my jobsite location).

before you get too excited.. in your example..

when you lease a property you are granted temporary possession of that property.. that is the point of the lease..

and during the course of that lease the property is "yours" with provisions.. but it is still YOUR property during the term of the lease..

 

4.

to grant the temporary possession or use of (lands, tenements, etc.) to another, usually for compensation at a fixed rate;

[vladtepes 1,060]

In that respect the "armed security" would have to have a CCW permit correct? seeing as it also isn't their property.

 

side idea: Maybe i could get my old man to change my job title to "security" and apply for a CCW permit? eh eh? lol

 

Also, pretenting the argument was won in favor of me being able to carry i assume it would make no difference between concealed and open?

 

armed security IS licensed by the state.. you are not..

[vladtepes 1,060]

also the licensing that enables individuals to carry for work in NJ (NON LEO) is restricted to performing ones duties.. and is not a general CCW licensing..

[RedBowTies88 41]

No I am not, and not to get too far off track as its simply a joke to even discuss but if my job position was changed to "security" i wonder how slim my chances are of getting a permit?

 

again not my intention just something to ponder. Would like to be able to carry at work though if im not taking too much of a legal risk.. perhapps I can get my father to deal me in for 1% of the company or something stupid like that. Again its not really worth the trouble but i am curious as to what would work

[RedBowTies88 41]

also the licensing that enables individuals to carry for work in NJ (NON LEO) is restricted to performing ones duties.. and is not a general CCW licensing..

 

Oh i know i know... just curious about it

[TheLugNutZ 21]

Like i said, i just cant see this as an issue. Is the cop going to check on your ownership of the company or how many shares you own before he arrests you?

[TheLugNutZ 21]

Also the family I know that owns the jewelry store is in a very popular area on a major road in a very busy town in central NJ. They have certainly come in contact with LEO both on and off duty as they have several LEOs as clients. Never had an issue with open carrying in the store...

[Dan 177]

before you get too excited.. in your example..

when you lease a property you are granted temporary possession of that property.. that is the point of the lease..

and during the course of that lease the property is "yours" with provisions.. but it is still YOUR property during the term of the lease..

 

OK, so if my sister comes and lives with me, she isn't on the lease, so she is not permitted to posses or carry her gun while living with me even though my apartment is her "residence" on her license, bills, work paychecks, etc?

[vladtepes 1,060]

Also the family I know that owns the jewelry store is in a very popular area on a major road in a very busy town in central NJ. They have certainly come in contact with LEO both on and off duty as they have several LEOs as clients. Never had an issue with open carrying in the store...

 

anecdotal stories do not indicate law.. "I have known some cops who abuse drugs.." "I have known some cops to look the other way while there were individuals underage drinking"

let there be a self defense shoot at that store.. where there is a dead body.. and a non owner holding the gun at the other end.. and that might shed some light on the situation..I am certainly not saying you are wrong.. just relaying what I experienced.. and what I have read..

 

No I am not, and not to get too far off track as its simply a joke to even discuss but if my job position was changed to "security" i wonder how slim my chances are of getting a permit?

 

again not my intention just something to ponder. Would like to be able to carry at work though if im not taking too much of a legal risk.. perhapps I can get my father to deal me in for 1% of the company or something stupid like that. Again its not really worth the trouble but i am curious as to what would work

 

the way the law is literally written..

I believe "his" to indicate the owner... as "his" is possessive.. even with regard to renters.. there is a lease that is granting temporary ownership of the land to the renter.. at that point "his" still applies..

if you were 1/100000000000 % owner I would at that point believe carrying at "your" "place of business" would be completely legal.. there is no stipulation that I am aware of being concealed or open.. in your situation concealed would likely be better.. because should you ever end up in any kind of altercation.. or heated argument.. all it takes is one person to say you threatened them with the gun they know you have.. they would then proceed to describe the gun in detail.. and you would have to explain a bunch of nonsense.. not RIGHT.. but just the way things can go.. but it is your call..

 

if you became a licensed armed security personal then I am sure your dad could hire you as such.. but there is probably a lot of nonsense to go through for that..

 

being a licensed armed security will not allow you to obtain CCW licensing..

 

I am certainly not a laywer.. the info I am giving you is just based on reading.. and several interactions with a business owner trying to see if his employees could legally carry..

[vladtepes 1,060]

OK, so if my sister comes and lives with me, she isn't on the lease, so she is not permitted to posses or carry her gun while living with me even though my apartment is her "residence" on her license, bills, work paychecks, etc?

 

most of the time.. someone who is not "on the lease" can not "live with you"

[Dan 177]

most of the time.. someone who is not "on the lease" can not "live with you"

 

LOL, ok my home that I own, and she is living with me for free.

[BigHayden 77]

Just to bake everyone's noodle a bit (especially you, Vlad), what defines "his residence"?

[RedBowTies88 41]

hmm, well i guess the only thing i can do to be sure is next time we talk to our lawyer (quite often in this business sadly) i'll see what he has to say..

 

now another thing, Lets pretend the owner argument is won in my favor and ic an carry at work, Routinly for ym job I need to be on the propertly owned by us but leased by tenants... how does that play into it all?

[RedBowTies88 41]

most of the time.. someone who is not "on the lease" can not "live with you"

 

Being in this business i can thats absolutly true..

 

although there's about 100,000,000 ways scumbags get around that

[TheLugNutZ 21]

this (esp your latest question) JUST MAY fall under the gray area clause LOL

[vladtepes 1,060]

I am really not interested in arguing the point to death.. place of business is not defined by NJ.. it is however prefaced with the word "his" indicating ownership.. if you think that stipulation allows any legal gun owner to carry any gun at any place of business where they happen to work.. then go for it.. I inquired at one point.. and at least one other person I know inquired... and while the question was not specifically "can a non owner carry" it was essentially the same question worded differently.. and the answer in all questions was NO.. again.. municipalities lie.. they are not always informed.. so really who knows.. I do not personally believe it allows for anyone BUT a business owner... if you think otherwise go for it.. just be sure.. because the only reason to ever carry a gun is to have it if you need it.. and well.. if you need it.. you better be sure you legally have it.. because if you shoot someone dead.. and the state decides you are wrongly carrying.. you will need pretty deep pockets to get out of it.. because unlike some laws.. it is not all that clear..

 

not trying to create paranoia you know how I feel about that..

[BigHayden 77]

I am really not interested in arguing the point to death.. place of business is not defined by NJ.. it is however prefaced with the word "his" indicating ownership.. if you think that stipulation allows any legal gun owner to carry any gun at any place of business where they happen to work.. then go for it.. I inquired at one point.. and at least one other person I know inquired... and while the question was not specifically "can a non owner carry" it was essentially the same question worded differently.. and the answer in all questions was NO.. again.. municipalities lie.. they are not always informed.. so really who knows.. I do not personally believe it allows for anyone BUT a business owner... if you think otherwise go for it.. just be sure.. because the only reason to ever carry a gun is to have it if you need it.. and well.. if you need it.. you better be sure you legally have it.. because if you shoot someone dead.. and the state decides you are wrongly carrying.. you will need pretty deep pockets to get out of it.. because unlike some laws.. it is not all that clear..

 

not trying to create paranoia you know how I feel about that..

 

The law doesn't define residence either, but we all agree that if you live there, it is your residence. Residence is also preceded by the word "his", which would have to imply ownership, if we follow your argument. If so, then Dan's sister would not be legal to carry a gun in their home because it isn't "hers".

 

Out of curiosity, of whom did you inquire about this?

 

You like to argue the logical point, but our laws aren't written to be logical. They are explicitly written to be traps.

[Dan 177]

hmm, well i guess the only thing i can do to be sure is next time we talk to our lawyer (quite often in this business sadly) i'll see what he has to say..

 

now another thing, Lets pretend the owner argument is won in my favor and ic an carry at work, Routinly for ym job I need to be on the propertly owned by us but leased by tenants... how does that play into it all?

 

Sorry to say but your lawyer will probably say "no" or "not advisable". There's no money involved, and it won't hurt or benefit your family's business. It is the safest answer for him/her to give, especially living in NJ where gun owners own guns "at our own peril".

[vladtepes 1,060]

LOL, ok my home that I own, and she is living with me for free.

 

Just to bake everyone's noodle a bit (especially you, Vlad), what defines "his residence"?

 

your residence is where you legally "live".. what is on your license.. your place of residence.. you establish residence by registering it with the state.. FID card.. drivers license.. etc.. you establish yoru residence.. I do not know what legal requirements that has.. even if your "sister lives with you" for "free" her drivers license indicates she lives at that address.. her FID indicates the same.. that is "her" residence..

 

you could argue place of business in the same context.. but I really think you are in an uphill battle..

 

hmm, well i guess the only thing i can do to be sure is next time we talk to our lawyer (quite often in this business sadly) i'll see what he has to say..

 

now another thing, Lets pretend the owner argument is won in my favor and ic an carry at work, Routinly for ym job I need to be on the propertly owned by us but leased by tenants... how does that play into it all?

 

your place of business is NOT someone's property you rent to.. IMO

the reason is "place of business" is a specific static location.. this is what keeps people like "electricians" from carrying when they do work in my home... your hypothetical rights to carry end where your "place of business" ends.. meaning that any time you set foot on a "lot" the gun would have to be removed first..

 

your situation is slightly awkward because you are leasing multiple dwellings in a single area.. but I would assume that you would be safe to carry (providing it is allowed) in your "office" "maintenance shop" etc.. but NOT on any leased lots.. and NOT in any common area that is considered communal property per lease (this would be like a lake.. pool.. etc..)

 

the reason being is those places are not solely your property... the implied partial ownership is established by the lease..

 

One last thing to consider..

NJ requires armed security guards to be licensed.. if it was true that ANY employee could be armed and not just the owner.. then there would be no need to license armed security.. you would simply hire someone.. and tell them to bring in a gun.. the fact that employees.. who are armed security.. having to be licensed.. says it all to me..

 

that is all an educated guess.. as I stated.. I am not a lawyer..

[vladtepes 1,060]

The law doesn't define residence either, but we all agree that if you live there, it is your residence. Residence is also preceded by the word "his", which would have to imply ownership, if we follow your argument. If so, then Dan's sister would not be legal to carry a gun in their home because it isn't "hers".

 

Out of curiosity, of whom did you inquire about this?

 

You like to argue the logical point, but our laws aren't written to be logical. They are explicitly written to be traps.

 

NJSP firearms division.. a local department.. and a local municipality..

 

it was in reference indirectly to two different businesses and a non owner carrying a firearm.. one instance involved a possible CCW licensing.. the response in every case was "if security is a concern.. hire an armed guard service"

 

while I do not know the complete legal definition off hand.. I am pretty sure residence is pretty clearly defined..

 

I argue the logical point because I prefer it over emotional response..

like I was saying.. if ANY employee could legally carry a firearm while "on the job" there would be no real need to spend time and money obtaining licensing to be armed security..