Advice on not getting P2P in 30 days

[colnar 0]

If I am correct, according to the statues, the local PD must approve/deny your P2P/FID within 30 days of application. I called the local PD last week and was told they we just getting to Oct/Nov permits. I filed my on 2/1/12. I was looking for advice on how to proceed with prodding the local PD to "speed up" my permits. I already have a FID. I don't want to irritate them, but this whole process takes way to long. I know this is happening to everyone else.

 

Any advice?

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Irritate them, call the Mayor!

 

My town takes around 6 weeks, but at least I know going-in that is the time frame. Not sure where all that time goes, but a friend of ours was doing them at the time and that is how long it took him to process and get our stuff back to us. The additional P2P's took the same amount of time as the original FID and P2P's took.

[SpecialK 193]

Stab them. Murder is ok as long as it is not done with a gun in NJ. That's the law I swear, look it up. IANAL

[colnar 0]

LOL guys.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

That thirty day limitation went out the window with a court case, and given the manpower shortages and the increase in those desiring to buy a gun, I don't think many PD's can make the limit. There are moves afoot to streamline the process, but they may not go anywhere. I'd give your PD at least 45 days before you take any action. Call them and ask if they got your references back - is there anything you can do to help, etc, etc. Next step may be going first to the chief and or a town representative or the mayor.

 

I believe that NJ2AS has a set itinerary for people in your position, you may want to contact them (and join) to find out what they recommend.

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

[lunker 274]

Not if you aren't willing to irritate them a little.

It requires escalation to people who get things done.

First, contact the police chief and ask for a meeting with him. Explain that you understand that delays can happen, but that several months is unacceptable. If he doesn't care or is not helpful, then contact your mayor and schedule a meeting. If he/she is not supportive, contact your State Assemblymen, then State Senator.

You need to be willing to go each step up the ladder and press your case with individuals who can put pressure on their subordinates. If you are not willing to do this, then be prepared to wait like everyone else. I hate to sound like a jerk, but in the end it will come down to whether you want to stand up for yourself. Realistically, what will be the negative implications of the police chief being annoyed that some higher-up told him to speed up your paperwork? Don't you think they get requests all the time from their bosses asking for special treatment for friends?

[colnar 0]

@Lunker: I am willing to irritate a little, I just don't want to be an a-hole. After all, I live here. I was thinking of calling and asking to speak to the officer in charge and see what the status is and see what I can do to help. If that doesn't work, I was thinking of going to the chief and then on up.

[this_is_nascar 162]

Talk to the Chief of Police, then the Mayor, then the State Police. The problem is that no one wants to be the perceived j*rkoff to cause a stir (thinking it will jeopardize their permits), so these same local *ssholes continue to drag their feet.

[jonfoxx 4]

That thirty day limitation went out the window with a court case, and given the manpower shortages and the increase in those desiring to buy a gun, I don't think many PD's can make the limit. There are moves afoot to streamline the process, but they may not go anywhere. I'd give your PD at least 45 days before you take any action. Call them and ask if they got your references back - is there anything you can do to help, etc, etc. Next step may be going first to the chief and or a town representative or the mayor.

 

I believe that NJ2AS has a set itinerary for people in your position, you may want to contact them (and join) to find out what they recommend.

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

 

Bob, are you saying that 2C:58-3 section F is no longer part of the NJ State Law? The reason I ask is that I'm nearing 60 days+ (even though I was told by an agent that mine was being put through a month ago and it would be done by now) and I was thinking of going to the PD or mailing a letter with a copy of this 2C:58-3F as reference to why its long overdue. I want to do this but don't want to look like an idiot if this is no longer "law". All I get now is voicemail hell and no return calls from my inquiries.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

It is no longer a law and I do not remember exactly what happened. The 30 days is now a guideline I believe. Somone will point-out the exact wording after the courts ruling.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Bob, are you saying that 2C:58-3 section F is no longer part of the NJ State Law?

 

It is still in the statutes, but it is unenforcable due to a court decision that said there are circumstances beyond your PD's control that may delay it beyond the 30 days.

[halbautomatisch 60]

It is still in the statutes, but it is unenforcable due to a court decision that said there are circumstances beyond your PD's control that may delay it beyond the 30 days.

 

This was my understanding of how we got to towns and NJSP taking more than 30 days.

 

But, does anyone know if the ruling said it was OK for the towns to take longer than 30 days just because they refuse to put adequate personnel on this duty? It's one thing if they are waiting for the mental records or reference letters to come back to them, but I have trouble believing that under staffing would be a legal reason to take months to process these applications.

 

I know my town got in trouble a few years ago because they didn't have enough building inspectors and were taking several months to issue building permits. The state order them to get more staff and eliminate the backlog. I know it's wishful thinking that they are going to care about guns in the same manner, but legally speaking, what's the difference?

[Dan 177]

This is more highly aggravating news, what is the court case title?

 

As for the OP, seems we can no longer quote the 30 day statute. Your best bet is to do as others say here and put pressure on the PD. I'd wait at least 45 days to demonstrate that you have been patient.

 

I usually call the clerk who handles the permits and ask her where in the process I am. If they say waiting on references, I'll offer to hand deliver the letters. If they say they are waiting on the NJSP, I'll ask for their number to call them. If she says its with the LEO in charge of ID or whatnot , I ask for his/her name and number and call them. If it is "on the cheif's desk", I'll ask for his/her number to call them and see if I can help.

 

Whatever you do, be polite but assertive. Always explain what your next course of action is, like others have said... escalating up the line. Also be persistent, call every few days and run through the same play. Demonstrate that you will not stop, magically your PPP will be available in a few days after you start this. Squeaky wheel gets the grease!

[stein 1]

NEW JERSEY-APPELLATE DIVISION-A-4878-96T5

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

There is a real Catch 22 here. The decision was rendered on the basis that the PD did not receive the FBI / SBI reports in a timely manner. Please note the date of this decision - it was 16 years ago. With digital fingerprint and criminal history databases, what once took weeks, now only takes minutes.

 

Here's the problem, there is no oversight. How do we know that the PD performed with due diligence in the submittal of fingerprint and criminal history checks. We don't, and, here's the Catch 22, there is no way that we, as applicants, can get the PD to disclose when they were submitted - because the reports are part of the background investigation and the NJAC (13:54-1.15) says...

 

Any background investigation conducted by the chief of police, the Superintendent or the county prosecutor, of any applicant for a permit, firearms identification card license, or registration, in accordance with the requirements of this chapter, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such investigation, including the applicant. Any application for a permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any document reflecting the issuance or denial of such permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any permit, firearms identification card, license, certification, certificate, form of register, or registration statement, maintained by any State or municipal governmental agency, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such documentation, including the applicant, except on the request of persons acting in their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice.

 

What this seems to say is that in order for us to be privy to the status of the investigation, it would be necessary to file a suit so that a person “acting in their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice” could make a legal inquiry.

 

The court may not have been aware of what trying to exercise oversight of the investigation entailed, but they showed they were aware of the necessity of it, by the following statement in their decision…

 

Undoubtedly, the statutory deadline was prompted by a desire to avoid dilatory consideration of the application.

 

This, in many cases, is exactly what is transpiring today. Our only remedy is either new legislation, or litigation.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Sadly, while there really is no accountability as we see it, it is up to us to keep on them. It's not right to us, it's also not right on the PD's side when they are tasked with this and no real support staff to handle it properly. It's not a great situation, but the only way things will change is to challenge non compliance to the (bogus) 30 day rule. The more people that make it an issue the more attention it will get. We each in towns that have issues need to stop being afraid to call and setup meeting with the Chief, the Mayor, right up the ladder until we get results. Contact the NJ2AS and make sure they are aware of any issues also. The last thing the Mayor and Chiefs want if more stuff on there plate, and if more people made it an issue, they would make changes.

 

Don't say it doesn't work, the NJ2AS has made great strides in changing some locations way of doing business, may towns that didn't allow more than 3 P2P's have changed after being educated but many of us. So get out there and do something. If we don't as a group nothing will change. Not going to happen overnight but remember the old saying, the squeaky wheel gets the oil..

[KpdPipes 388]

There are several holdups.....SOME sadly are due to local PD practices.some however are out of the control of your local PDs the County Health forms are one holdup, there is a lot of time lost waiting for those to come back. there are other issues however which have been brought to the attention of NJ2AS

[mipafox 438]

What are the County Health forms for? Are they checking on your health and medical history?

[Jon 264]

What are the County Health forms for? Are they checking on your health and medical history?

 

Mental Health History.

[Bully 749]

Yesterday, I realized that I had been waiting for 6 weeks for my permit. I called to ask to speak with the officer that handles them for my town, was told he was on the road but would call when he returned. He did 30 minutes later. I asked what the hold up was and was told that he hadn't received one of my reference letters. I challengend him and he took the time and looked for it while I waited. Someone had placed it in the file incorrectly so it had been overlooked. Said he will call by monday with permits for me.

 

Be polite, assertive and firm. But, polite.

 

C

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

It is still in the statutes, but it is unenforcable due to a court decision that said there are circumstances beyond your PD's control that may delay it beyond the 30 days.

 

Yup.

 

It's called 'Public Safety'. A court case in the late 90s nullified this. Court said too damn bad, we have 'Public Safety' to be concerned with, and sometimes it can, will, and does, take longer than 30days, so basically.......tough s***!!!

[colnar 0]

Well that stinks. They can basically drag there feet and say they were just backed up and they are fine.

[halbautomatisch 60]

There is a real Catch 22 here. The decision was rendered on the basis that the PD did not receive the FBI / SBI reports in a timely manner. Please note the date of this decision - it was 16 years ago. With digital fingerprint and criminal history databases, what once took weeks, now only takes minutes.

 

Here's the problem, there is no oversight. How do we know that the PD performed with due diligence in the submittal of fingerprint and criminal history checks. We don't, and, here's the Catch 22, there is no way that we, as applicants, can get the PD to disclose when they were submitted - because the reports are part of the background investigation and the NJAC (13:54-1.15) says...

 

Any background investigation conducted by the chief of police, the Superintendent or the county prosecutor, of any applicant for a permit, firearms identification card license, or registration, in accordance with the requirements of this chapter, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such investigation, including the applicant. Any application for a permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any document reflecting the issuance or denial of such permit, firearms identification card, or license, and any permit, firearms identification card, license, certification, certificate, form of register, or registration statement, maintained by any State or municipal governmental agency, is not a public record and shall not be disclosed to any person not authorized by law or this chapter to have access to such documentation, including the applicant, except on the request of persons acting in their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice.

 

What this seems to say is that in order for us to be privy to the status of the investigation, it would be necessary to file a suit so that a person “acting in their governmental capacities for purposes of the administration of justice” could make a legal inquiry.

 

The court may not have been aware of what trying to exercise oversight of the investigation entailed, but they showed they were aware of the necessity of it, by the following statement in their decision…

 

Undoubtedly, the statutory deadline was prompted by a desire to avoid dilatory consideration of the application.

 

This, in many cases, is exactly what is transpiring today. Our only remedy is either new legislation, or litigation.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

What I didn't see in that court ruling was anything that allowed a PD to take longer than the thirty day statute because they simply do not have enough people processing the applications, it would seem if that's the case, the PD is still in violation of the law.

 

As for accountability, if NJ is going to insist on keeping this antiquated system, the PDs should be forced to document every step of the process to prove they are not the agency causing the hold up - date application received, date reference letters sent out, date reference letters received back, date mental records request sent out and received back, etc.

 

Another interesting note - this case sites Burton v Sills which was effectively overturned by Heller and Macdonald, I wonder what difference if any that would make should this be brought up again.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

 

Another interesting note - this case sites Burton v Sills which was effectively overturned by Heller and Macdonald, I wonder what difference if any that would make should this be brought up again.

 

NJ already nullified McDonald.

 

Summer of 2010 there was a cause where a guy was denied his FID card. He fought, and lost. He claimed his 2A rights where being trampled in light of the recent McDonald ruling. Judge said tough s**t, the township you live in has an extremely low crime rate, thus not warranting a gun for 'self defense'. So he lost.

[deadeye74 5]

NJ already nullified McDonald.

 

Summer of 2010 there was a cause where a guy was denied his FID card. He fought, and lost. He claimed his 2A rights where being trampled in light of the recent McDonald ruling. Judge said tough s**t, the township you live in has an extremely low crime rate, thus not warranting a gun for 'self defense'. So he lost.

 

Sadly, this kind of response from a judge sounds typical for NJ

[Qel Hoth 33]

That guy needs to file a federal suit for deprivation of civil rights under color of law, unless "you don't need a gun for SD" isn't the only reason he was denied.

[EchoMirage 137]

30 days is nothing. last year it took 3.5 months. this past permit was 1.5 months. i wouldnt bother doing anything unless youre over 3 months

[colnar 0]

I just called the local PD. All my paperwork is in, I just have to wait behind all the people in front of me. They are just getting to the permints from January now. I was told that my app is in the Detective Bureau, and I should get a call in 1-2 weeks.

[exfed2002 4]

If he doesn't care or is not helpful

He may not have any choice. He cannot just issue permits in conflict with outstanding procedures and regulations promulgated by FIU. In any case, a permit issued in violation of plicy and regulations would end up having no force anyway if push came to shove.

 

There would even be a bigger problem if a Chief issued a permit in violation of outstanding policy and regulation and the recipent turned out to be ineligible or used the weapon to commit a crime.

 

then contact your mayor and schedule a meeting.

Great way to make friends. In any case, a Mayor or "Police Commissioner" on the council has NO say over the running of the police department. This was made clear many years ago when these people thought they could issue orders to chiefs on the way they wanted departments run, permits issued, etc. A constant problem since they want DMV checks and other things to which they are not entitled. What they do do, is force decent chiefs out in disgust.

[colnar 0]

I just followed up on my permits. I went from 1-2 weeks a week ago to 4 weeks now! The excuse is manpower issues and too many permit requests.